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News & Features Discussion  » Horizons: Special Report: The EI Catastrophe

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101 posts found
  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/28/06 1:40:40 PM#41

Originally posted by martinj63

Oh please, Emo much?

People were lied to and  they were defrauded, and neither Tulga nor EI has made compensation. That my friend is illegal it is unethical and those that perpetrated it should pay with their money and freedom. And from the looks of things they will.


Originally posted by snickel
Rarely have I seen a change of ownership in a game accompanied by so much emotion.

There were mistakes that TULGA made and there were mistakes that EII already has made. Of course.

But where is this game now? It is still alive. It is still fun to play. The European players who have had a rough deal with GN shall get a chance to move to a new US shard that will be created for them. This game might just have a future after all.

Unless enough people shall be convinced otherwise thus leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I cannot help but wonder at the motivation behind some of the hate-posts about the new owners -- to me it seems like the reaction of a rejected lover who wishes to destroy what he cannot have.










I did not refer to your friend, martinj63. I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.



  Finfid

Novice Member

Joined: 8/05/05
Posts: 14

10/28/06 1:47:26 PM#42
An interesting article I suppose, although Ms. Koh could use some more training in the use of english grammer and formating.
  Shadrak

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 381

10/28/06 1:48:42 PM#43

Originally posted by snickel

I did not refer to your friend, martinj63. I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.




they dont have to do a thing. the game and EI are doing a fine job of advancing Horizons failure.
  User Deleted
10/28/06 2:39:16 PM#44

This is not surprising to see, before i was deployed to iraq i cancelled my subscription. (david bowmen, year one timeframe) upon returning a year later i found i had been charged every month during that year. sending emails to tulga did nothing, they shuffled me to IPAY and IBILL but after 3 months of ping pong customer service they referenced my case BACK to tulga/horizons. the next email i recieved, as mine was as colorful as i could make it, was from tulga, stating i had never cancelled and that they have as of this time cancelled my account as requested. the billing sites blaming the other one for the foul up, then turning on tulga for the scapegoat.

well i looked at the email and thought to my self, self, i didnt ask to cancel, i asked for a years refund, any letters sent to me indicated i had "just" then cancelled. sending the cancellation email from way back then never got any response from tulga.  imagine that.

folks playing horizons back then will remember double/triple monthly billing, failed cancellations, failed customer support between ipay, ibill and tulga, it was quite the fiasco on the boards, many of the posts on the fraudulant billing deleted as fast as they got put on.

i since then (years later) settled with tulga and received 3/4 of my stolen money back. this note is to let folks know i am seeing the same thing happen, dont be fooled, bowman (in his consultant capacity) and tulga are in my eyes thieves not willing to help anyone but themselves.  what this new company will do is anyones guess.

just a heads up and warning on horizons.

 

  User Deleted
10/28/06 2:48:37 PM#45

Originally posted by Gorukha

Originally posted by CracMonki

Originally posted by Gorukha
  Yeah you might be right about GW, although I'm not entirely sold on their stellar sucess yet, since I can't find much
info on their running costs and developing budget, casue as you said I'm a little man with little brain.

   As far as the technological side of EvE, I made the comparison because as you see in the reviews, technology isn't exactly one of the criteria .  Games fun and playability isnt judged on how many people can play on one server.  That's something for tech-geeks to drool over not the average gamer sorry.

   EvE has many fans, and I could understand why someone would give it an OK score. However the scores it recieves in many instances, as on this website, really go against reason. Game is hard to get into, it is very slow paced, alot of downtime, months to become competetive in the pvp aspect of it.  These are all arguemnts against the good scores this game recieves.  One more reason not to trust reviews of this site and many others.  EvE constantly advertising on this site and the unimaginably good scores ti recieves doesnt exactly fill me with trust.

 

sorry... but EvE is a great game.. one of the best space games i've played.. and an awesome MMO..

Game isn't really all that hard to get into... plus i think the learning curve is one of the good ways to smooth out the player base.. anyways.. I never see large amount of downtime.. but i don't try to play 24/7. Also any good MMO should takes months to become competetive in PvP. Thats one of the strong points. And as for as being slow paced not really... you can get out there and go pirate hunting and PVE the hell outa that game from start..

now i do have to say that some the jumps take forever.. but thats just managment.. i've been able to keep my jumps to just a few hops..

I beleave that all the stuff you talkeb about is what people like about EVE..

The fact that it takes a little learning to get into it.. (not a WoW system where even the brain dead can play)

shit and it has some of the best player run owned and controled game space in any MMO. as a player corp (aka guild) you can take over intired sectors of space.

and many other things.. i can go one for hours about this.. hell just the tweaking of ships and how you combat things.. i myself like the stealth and distroy way...

 

as for as server issues and expanding them.. Hell you tell me any other MMO that supports 100's if not a 1000 people fighting in large battles.. i've been in space battles that have had 100's of people going at it for control over a sector that has great resources.. sorry but no other MMo offers this type of gameplay.. and that right there is what gives EVE it's high scores..

 

anyway thats my rant.


   Yah, I like when people are unable to even say anything bad about their game. Fanbois ftl.  No game is perfect and Eve definetly isnt as good as the ratings it gets/reviews.  Maybe its because many reviews are done by people who are addicted to that particualr game and cant form a balanced review, which I have seen forever in many publications and online magazines.  Not a good idea to let a crack-head do a balanced review on drugs.

  

lol...

dude.. you ever heard of the word "subjective'?  How about "personal opinion"?

That you have the nerve to first say in a previous post that the good reviews it gets are "beyond reason" and now saying Eve definitely isn't as good as the ratings it gets... talk about flying in the face of reason.

*You* don't like the game personally. *You* don't feel the game deserves those ratings. Those are *your* opinions. So perhaps *you*  should learn to stay away from absolutes like "definitely isn't as good"... it's not as good in *your opinion*.

Obviously there are thousands of people who disagree with you.


  severius

Elite Member

Joined: 8/10/04
Posts: 1524

10/28/06 3:30:26 PM#46
I find it funny and kind of sad that EI has to use the sony line of a small vocal minority.  I think that that speaks volumes about the current state of affairs with poor Horizon's.

Horizon's in and of itself had a beautiful idea that was originally destroyed by the publisher (atari I think it was though I may be mistaken).  Tulga tried, unsuccessfully to make some of those ideas a reality but failed.  The fact that EI would buy a game that was limping along, and then cause these kinds of issues says much about the corporate structure surrounding mmo titles.  I hope that all new and old companies look at this, along with the actions of Sony last year and are able to not repeat the mistakes of the past.


  LordSlater

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 2059

Some people say im a virus. But i say they are the Virus, I am the cure.

10/28/06 4:33:41 PM#47
You know im really sad at whats happened to this game i tried it once just before it was sold off and i found the lag absolutly terrable which was why i gave up. I would however try this game again if the devs get there act together and fix this game and fix the lag.

  Nadril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1280

10/28/06 5:09:33 PM#48

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Gorukha

Originally posted by CracMonki

Originally posted by Gorukha
  Yeah you might be right about GW, although I'm not entirely sold on their stellar sucess yet, since I can't find much
info on their running costs and developing budget, casue as you said I'm a little man with little brain.

   As far as the technological side of EvE, I made the comparison because as you see in the reviews, technology isn't exactly one of the criteria .  Games fun and playability isnt judged on how many people can play on one server.  That's something for tech-geeks to drool over not the average gamer sorry.

   EvE has many fans, and I could understand why someone would give it an OK score. However the scores it recieves in many instances, as on this website, really go against reason. Game is hard to get into, it is very slow paced, alot of downtime, months to become competetive in the pvp aspect of it.  These are all arguemnts against the good scores this game recieves.  One more reason not to trust reviews of this site and many others.  EvE constantly advertising on this site and the unimaginably good scores ti recieves doesnt exactly fill me with trust.

 

sorry... but EvE is a great game.. one of the best space games i've played.. and an awesome MMO..

Game isn't really all that hard to get into... plus i think the learning curve is one of the good ways to smooth out the player base.. anyways.. I never see large amount of downtime.. but i don't try to play 24/7. Also any good MMO should takes months to become competetive in PvP. Thats one of the strong points. And as for as being slow paced not really... you can get out there and go pirate hunting and PVE the hell outa that game from start..

now i do have to say that some the jumps take forever.. but thats just managment.. i've been able to keep my jumps to just a few hops..

I beleave that all the stuff you talkeb about is what people like about EVE..

The fact that it takes a little learning to get into it.. (not a WoW system where even the brain dead can play)

shit and it has some of the best player run owned and controled game space in any MMO. as a player corp (aka guild) you can take over intired sectors of space.

and many other things.. i can go one for hours about this.. hell just the tweaking of ships and how you combat things.. i myself like the stealth and distroy way...

 

as for as server issues and expanding them.. Hell you tell me any other MMO that supports 100's if not a 1000 people fighting in large battles.. i've been in space battles that have had 100's of people going at it for control over a sector that has great resources.. sorry but no other MMo offers this type of gameplay.. and that right there is what gives EVE it's high scores..

 

anyway thats my rant.


   Yah, I like when people are unable to even say anything bad about their game. Fanbois ftl.  No game is perfect and Eve definetly isnt as good as the ratings it gets/reviews.  Maybe its because many reviews are done by people who are addicted to that particualr game and cant form a balanced review, which I have seen forever in many publications and online magazines.  Not a good idea to let a crack-head do a balanced review on drugs.

  

lol...

dude.. you ever heard of the word "subjective'?  How about "personal opinion"?

That you have the nerve to first say in a previous post that the good reviews it gets are "beyond reason" and now saying Eve definitely isn't as good as the ratings it gets... talk about flying in the face of reason.

*You* don't like the game personally. *You* don't feel the game deserves those ratings. Those are *your* opinions. So perhaps *you*  should learn to stay away from absolutes like "definitely isn't as good"... it's not as good in *your opinion*.

Obviously there are thousands of people who disagree with you.



But, your shooting him down for his own opinion than, right? Makes sense to me.
  User Deleted
10/28/06 6:58:06 PM#49


But, your shooting him down for his own opinion than, right? Makes sense to me.


Oh I love when people do this... completely and probably deliberately misconstrue what you say and then try to throw it back in your face.

Okay... Show me where in my post I tell him his opinion is wrong, or I "shoot it down" in your words?

... give up?

That's because I don't.

What I am telling him is that he's discrediting others' views by stating what is only his opinion as though it were fact.

Case in point:
"No game is perfect and Eve definetly isnt as good as the ratings it gets/reviews."

"definitely isn't as good as the ratings it gets" - I don't see anything in there resembling an "I think" or an "in my opinion", do you? No, he's stating it quite emphatically, using "definitely" to underscore that Eve is unquestionably not worthy of the reviews it receives.

What I am "shooting down", in your words, is the attempt to impose his views on others as though it were fact, and not his opinion. It's a disrespectful and ignorant way to be in an open message forum where everyone's views/opinions, if sufficiently supported, should be respected - or at least respectfully disagreed with. But of course, I realize this is the internet, where such things are seldom seen.

In my opinion, it seems as though he doesn't like the game and it bothers him that others do. That's too bad. But it's still only his opinion - no matter how strongly he feels about it.

Get it?




  Tantarra

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/06
Posts: 12

10/28/06 9:16:22 PM#50
I was a beta tester for Horizons. In the end I didn't subscribe when the game went live, although I did think the game held a lot of promise. It's sad to see that it has come to this stage. Interesting article.

"Touch the M&Ms on my desk and you're fired from the design team."
"No really! You're fired!"
"Oh, you brought a refill. You're promoted."

  Jenuviel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 958

Sadness is but a wall between two gardens. -Kahlil Gibran

10/29/06 1:57:52 AM#51

Originally posted by Finfid
An interesting article I suppose, although Ms. Koh could use some more training in the use of english grammer and formating.
1. English. Specific languages are always capitalized.
2. grammar
3. formatting

I didn't make these corrections to be a pain in the behind, but rather to show that even simple, individual sentences can be riddled with mistakes. Overall, the article in question was fairly well-written and balanced. While technical details are important in writing, they're just the vehicle with which the information is delivered. Carolyn's information was researched, balanced, and understandable. If she misplaced a semicolon, I think we can probably forgive her. Since most of the MMORPG.com editorial writers are volunteers and hobbyists rather than professional writers, it's not really expected that they'd have copies of Strunk & White's "Elements of Style" next to their computers. Cheers. =)

(P.S. I enjoyed the article, Carolyn. I was one of the former players who filed with the BBB, and it's nice to see the issues getting some coverage. I'd briefly played the game years ago and found it to be "okay," but not great. When the ownership changed, I went back to see if the game might have changed a bit as well. After realizing it hadn't, I then realized I couldn't cancel my account. There were no publicly listed phone numbers, none of the contact information on E.I.'s webpage was accurate, and when they eventually put up email addresses that could  be reached, I had to file for cancellation three times in three weeks before getting a response.)
  Valkanisar

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/05/04
Posts: 513

"<[EQ]Prathun> I can work on fixing EQ for the rest of my grown life and never fix it."

10/29/06 4:41:03 AM#52

all these problems with billing and hacked server is sickening. this bowman character was always a bit shady.
looks like this was a quick way to gain some cash fast then worry about the chargebacks later. just this EI's actions and non-actions spell out SCAMMED. It development companies like this that make it really hard for the "little guys" to get any where in the mmorpg business.

I mean how dumb can people be to know how to program and design the code for a billing system but not know that info is over secure lines only? Such BS if you ask me. "oops lets us bill you 3 times today cause bob forgot to buy donuts for the office."

Luckily for me i left this game quickly after beta. it was so obvious where this was heading after release and they went bankrupt. To tell you the truth, spite all the bugs and content that was not in release there was still something about this game that i liked. though i would never give out my info to these #*@(*&(
"thanks for using our unsecure lines, we promise it was criminals who did the hacking, not us."

Wonder if they went and dumped all that cash into some stocks. what ever it is that was done, no matter what they say, this was all planned in advance. looks too smooth.... cough cough, ya right....
hmm so this is where most of the guys from age of mourning went to? dave caught a break with his porn sites and decided to pull some new stunts.

wonder how many times these type of companies can scam people with out any thing being done just cause its a video game in bankruptcy.

Head Joint SoundCloud Page
https://soundcloud.com/headjointambient1

  randprin

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/05
Posts: 59

10/29/06 9:07:54 AM#53

i beta tested horizons, and like many thought it showed great promise but did not live to expectations, it's sad to see it goes but it's not such a great loss to the industry.

i am however suprised by the turn of events as depicted in this article. if even half of the written turn of events is true i think lawsuits will be forthcoming in the future.

oh and on a final note, lay off the EVE/GW/WoW glorifing/bashing on this thread, not only they're totally out of context here, but they also reek of fanbois worshiping their game and snubbing all the others.

MMORPG addict since 1995.

  Holyavenger1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/23/06
Posts: 195

Your mom.

10/29/06 10:45:47 AM#54
Wow, that sucks for the players. I feel bad for them :(

I can't believe a serious company would do such a retarded thing, this is beyond stupid. What a fraking bunch of noobtards. Please, everyone reminds me to stay clear of anything bearing the name of "Tulga" or "EI".


Fyrr Deerdan - Gameless MMORPGer

  jimmyman99

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/04
Posts: 3234

"Damn you, poetical justice" - Homer Simpson

10/29/06 11:47:35 AM#55
I loved Horizons back in the days...good old days... im saddened to hear that it is not faring so well. Im also saddened to read about dubious business practices and farlanism of the owners. When do companies learn not to disrespect their customers? And no excuse just becuase its a low budget company! I work for a low profile telecom comany (3 people crew) and If I miss an email or a customer complaint once, I make sure i dont miss it the second time. Not all issues can be resolved in favor of my customer (as they always expect), but at least I am communicating.

Bring down the hammer of justice on their bussiness practice!

PS: great coverage, MMORPG! We gotta expose more companies like these to what they realy are - greedy, incompetent and lying bunch of dirty bluecollar wannabeas.

I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.

  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  10/29/06 12:49:03 PM#56
Everyone - While your debate about EVE is a legitimate one, can you please transfer it to the EVE boards and let this thread stay on topic?

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  UragaMicor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 1

10/29/06 1:25:09 PM#57

I was a betatester for this game and it ...really really sucked!! There were more then the average beta problems in this game

Although the testers were in the beginning were very loyal the company never listended to any of the the comments they made. In the end I(and many with me) left the game.

I'm not suprised that the game is still not working.I'm not even suprised that there are still problems that were around in beta.

 And yes Bowman screwed it up big time

  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/29/06 2:30:36 PM#58

The critique notwithstanding -- playing horizons even in the state the game is currently in is way better than missing out on it.

For me and many others (those that like to craft or like to play dragons) it is still the best game on the market.

I am sorry for everyone who is persuaded by this article and the ensuing discussion not to give it a try. Thats why I detest those people who take a delight in pronouncing it dead.
  dand3

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 241

10/29/06 3:03:21 PM#59

There was a lot of work done in the last year or so; Dragon Lairs were added, the tutorial/beginner islands and the low level subcontinent Lesser Aradoth received  complete makeovers, and perhaps most important, the Ancient Rite of Passage was added and the whole dragon experience was improved greatly.

Trial sub retention rates went from effectively zip to better than 50%, a remarkable figure.  The game itself (not counting the Gothic game development expenses) was just becoming profitable due to the increased subscription base.  That's what made the game salable; as soon as it hit breakeven, and could show a rising subscription base, Chris Baker's interest could be liquidated.

The game servers still run; the improvements of the last year are still there... a new player should get 1-1 1/2 years of good content before hitting the weak endgame.

EI really didn't know what they didn't know; and they fouled up billing, communications, and failed to even communicate with the devs Tulga fired just before the takeover. (Firing was odd, have not heard the reasons for that. )  On the other paw, EI has pledged to add new content, and to clean up underlying tech and documentation issues first.  They say, correctly that that will take quite a while... They're learning. As a very small beginning, but still a beginning, the Fall Festival from last year was just put back into the game; trick or treating, costumes, masks, etc.

So, players are playing, and enjoying the game; it is unique in some respects. Billing seems to be working again, and early tech issues are generally improved.  I believe it still has the most mature player base (emotionally and chronologically) of any MMO; these ain't kids playing their first MMO.  It would not have lasted this long, against such odds, if there were nothing there.

  Celoria

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 8

10/29/06 4:22:49 PM#60

I'm just glad the write up is somewhere extremely visible and nowhere where EII can have it deleted. ;)

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