I'm getting way off course here but here are my last thoughts for today.

When a character dies or is out of character it gets a FLAG or attribute, either the FLAG says DEAD or the attribute says OOC (as opposed to IC or no DEAD flag) .. If a character SOMEHOW enters the In Character world w/ a dead flag or OOC in the 'Status' or 'Mode' or 'WhatNot' attrib, the character is immediately moved back to the OOC world.

all these thoughts are based on text MU* code used successfully in online star trek games

OK, haven't read every post in detail, but here is my two penneth;

How many of you have actually watched Star Trek? I am gonna guess that all of you have seen at least a few episodes, yes?

Now, thinking back on Star Trek in general, how many times did you see a main character die for good?

The main characters face certain death or even get killed many times, but are always saved at the last second or revived by some sudden miricle of medicine or transporter technology (Spock went the whole hog and not only died, but re-grew). Why? Well would you watch the whole series if the main characters were being killed off every other week and couldn't be saved or revived?

It would have been commercial suicide to kill off main characters, as it would be in this game as well. You will be the main character in this game and people would be leaving the game in droves if they had struggled to get a character to captain status only to be killed off by someone else's stupid mistake during a joint mission. Think now about how you would feel if your main character were wiped out in whatever MMO you currently play or you weren't allowed access to it for a week or two, not a good thought is it!

I totally understand your feelings about the reality factor, but to be honest, when was Star Trek ever about total reality?

I agree Jason, well written.

Besides Star Trek and other games are Heroic opera, not reality. With in reason some reality is good for a game or a heroic opera, but too much and people wonder why they are playing real life and paying for it.

Sounds like a few people are at least a little concerned about it.
Need we forget the red shirts? Tasha? Data? & Yes Spock

But here is my point, where is the risk? When does gaming begin to reflect reality more?
I don't dig it.. Consider.. If the game is built so if you die you're dead, how often will you die?
If the game is built that you die but don't really die, how many times are you going to die?
Consider all the other MMOs you ever played.. Everquest, WoW, Planetside, Eve Online, SWG, any of them..

Anyway, I know some players are scared by the thought of an actual death but, I think it is very important that they do add a possible real death.

Also, in the text games, when someone died, it added to the RP the IC aspect of the game.
Me, I'll be playing Star Trek completely In Character & if I can't really die ? Eh, I don't know if I'd like that.

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Originally posted by alicairo

Sounds like a few people are at least a little concerned about it.
Need we forget the red shirts? Tasha? Data? & Yes Spock

But here is my point, where is the risk? When does gaming begin to reflect reality more?
I don't dig it.. Consider.. If the game is built so if you die you're dead, how often will you die?
If the game is built that you die but don't really die, how many times are you going to die?
Consider all the other MMOs you ever played.. Everquest, WoW, Planetside, Eve Online, SWG, any of them..

Anyway, I know some players are scared by the thought of an actual death but, I think it is very important that they do add a possible real death.

Also, in the text games, when someone died, it added to the RP the IC aspect of the game.
Me, I'll be playing Star Trek completely In Character & if I can't really die ? Eh, I don't know if I'd like that.

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First off most people are playing a game to enjoy it, the enviroment, the community, NOT to duplicate the total real world experience.

Second, at least in my case it is not "scared" as you stated, but more to the level of balancing a enjoyable game, time committment, and the negative aspects of failing.

Third,  Perma-death while sounding like a great Rp idea, fails to take into account things such as lag, crashes (server, your computer, your ISP, etc). Let's assume you are a careful, take all the reasonable precautions, then bamb in teh middle of your ship to ship duel you lag out? How happy are you going to be to get back in game only to find out, that you are dead and have to restart from scratch?

Finally, perma-death will kill any reason to explore, to push the bountries of your know space. Why in the heck should i check out that unknown system with a charater that i have spend months creating and fleshing out? why would I risk trying to seek out new life when that life could very well be life that thinks i am the blue plate special?

Death in a game should have down side, no doubt, but if you force perma-death on everyone, then you are goig to limit the appeal and desire to even try the game out and stay with it. There are many other ways to make players actively desire avoiding death.

Perma-death to me is equal to the ulitmate and endless treadmill grind. In your own words, if i knew i was facing perma-death eh, I do not know if I would like that.

Lag? Crashes? ... My understanding is many ships will have much NPC control & you cannot forget about the NPC aspect. If you're disconnected unconscious I'd think you'd either be brought back to the ship by a real player or an NPC or you log back in unconscious. People can be 'dead' in star trek but not 'dead' as well because they can be revived within a certain time frame.

Really I do think scared is the right word... You covered my exact point.. A game is just that, a game for fun.. To me, if I died, it wouldn't be a serious issue. In fact, if one thought it a serious issue, I think they're taking the game too seriously. To be honest, my opinion is, with a perma-death system there will actually be LESS deaths.

Personally, I think this is very justified. I've been a gamer since 85 ? Something like that & I participated in the first MMOs on the Internet. I have less of a concern about my in game characters & more of a concern about my real life. Anyway, the first Star Trek online games all had perma-death & you know what? It wasn't very likely the average player died. In fact I played a perma-death system in Strange New Worlds, my character lasted until the game ended & I had been in many fights & even yes, killed a few people's characters. In those games it was very unlikely that someone would progress far enough to get in a situation that they actually risked a real death, but, STO will be much broader & I am sure more dangerous.

Still, in the end, I wish & wish again for a perma-death system or else it would not be doing Star Trek right.

Oh, & someone talked about deleting a character after you die? Please go back & read one of my posts here.. Going back to a character screen / deleting the character is just what you're used to seeing in MMOs..
I think a person should already be in game by the time they're making a character.. *shrug*
They won't care about the STO DB anyway so it's most likely going to be just like the other MMOs anyway.

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Originally posted by SmurfMagic
nooooooooooooooooooooo perma death sucks.

why spend all that time and creative energy to create you own persona online only to have some jerkass PK ruin your fun... then to have to re-grind everything all over... no thank you.

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As far as I know? It'll just be UFP at launch.. Just Star Fleet.. so why would a fellow Star Fleet player-kill you?

Here is my main point. I want players to start considering what they're doing in games more often. With the real risk of perma-death, players won't just run & gun because they'll know if they don't consider consequences, they'll die.

Perma-death would also bring the community together instead of apart. Why you ask?
Very simply, in a reality where you can die, you're going to want a friend or two.

Here is my other thought.

Consider you're playing the game & don't know who to associate yourself with?
Well, what if Admiral Player has a 'service' of the entire games history & has not died once.
You'd want to hang w/ him awhile wouldn't you?

Now consider if there is no perma-death.. It's left to guessing as to wether these people you're going on a mission with are death-prone or not.

Perma death is a bad idea.  Original Jedi in SWG who died when they had perma death in place quit the game.  You dont want to work an average of probably 3-6 months on leveling up your toon to lose it all in an instant.  Plus here's another point.  Again referring back to SWG.  The Jedi who unlocked when perma death were in place ended up playing their normal toons 95% of the time because of that fear of death factor.  They worked for months to unlock and can have it all taken in an instant.  So the way they kept their toons alive was to just not play them much at all.  What fun is that?

The idea is just not practical for an mmo.  MMO's normally have about 4 classes of players, 1. hard core, playing all the time player, 2. Semi Hard core, (playing most every day at least for a few hours), 3. casual gamers who play weekends or here and there throught the week, and finally 4. browsers, people who come and check out the game and quit.  So as a business decision how many of these areas would you put off with perma death?  Easily #'s 3,4 would quit because it would takes much longer for them to level because of lack of playing time.  #2 a huge majority would quit because they feel that all their off time playing the game was in vain.  That leaves the #1 people.  Really I only see the hard core gamers taking any sort of liking to this.  You have to remember that an mmo as a business is going to want to KEEP their subscribers as well as attract new ones and perma death would be a tremendous blow to subscription resubs.

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Originally posted by TeranHawkins

Perma death is a bad idea.  Original Jedi in SWG who died when they had perma death in place quit the game.  You dont want to work an average of probably 3-6 months on leveling up your toon to lose it all in an instant.  Plus here's another point.  Again referring back to SWG.  The Jedi who unlocked when perma death were in place ended up playing their normal toons 95% of the time because of that fear of death factor.  They worked for months to unlock and can have it all taken in an instant.  So the way they kept their toons alive was to just not play them much at all.  What fun is that?

The idea is just not practical for an mmo.  MMO's normally have about 4 classes of players, 1. hard core, playing all the time player, 2. Semi Hard core, (playing most every day at least for a few hours), 3. casual gamers who play weekends or here and there throught the week, and finally 4. browsers, people who come and check out the game and quit.  So as a business decision how many of these areas would you put off with perma death?  Easily #'s 3,4 would quit because it would takes much longer for them to level because of lack of playing time.  #2 a huge majority would quit because they feel that all their off time playing the game was in vain.  That leaves the #1 people.  Really I only see the hard core gamers taking any sort of liking to this.  You have to remember that an mmo as a business is going to want to KEEP their subscribers as well as attract new ones and perma death would be a tremendous blow to subscription resubs.

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Some people think Star Wars is better then Star Trek..
My opinion is Star Trek is way better.

Anyway, why are we talking about POSSIBLY the worst MMO in the history of MMOs?

To be honest, I do not care about sales numbers & player populations or even these people who take these games so seriously. I don't.
I do care about Star Trek being true to it's roots & that's from the point of the 1st Red Shirt going down to the Next Gen & on.

My thoughts are, what's the f'n point of playing if you can't really die? Wheres the end?
I'm tired of this perma-alive avatar concept & the game that never ends idea.

Sure, when the concept of this game was first thought up & then the visual direction was considered I spoke to my friend about it some 3 - 4 yrs ago & he was outraged at the idea of a perma-death.
Where is he? Dude doesn't even play video games anymore, he joined the military.

Do you see my point? To all of you 'perma-death' is a bad idea because you've never played a game you couldn't just reset or restart your character at a save point from.

Even with perma-death you are basically 'resetting' & I even showed how reimburcement would occur in a perma-death system.. You'd basically lose nothing but your name (add a II or III) & your In Character knowledge. So certain things like another character you used to know would be KIND OF lost.

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Originally posted by alicairo
Here is my other thought.
Consider you're playing the game & don't know who to associate yourself with?Well, what if Admiral Player has a 'service' of the entire games history & has not died once.You'd want to hang with him awhile wouldn't you?
Now consider if there is no perma-death.. It's left to guessing as to wether these people you're going on a mission with are death-prone or not.

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I just don't see perma-death working at all. Just in the point you raised above it doesn't work. You may want to hang with a veteran that hasn't died, but why the hell would he want to hang with you if you have no experience. The last thing he (or she) is going to want is some newbie coming in and taking his phasers off line just as he is in the middle of a life or death battle.

Just stepping back a bit, you mentioned some characters that died, but i will get a little geeky now. Tasha (i never considered a main char, but anyway) was revived in another dimension for further episodes of TNG, Data didn't really die because he dumped his brain into another andriod and Spock also came back to life on planet Genesis. As for red shirts, i don't remember one that made 'main character' status and they would be the equivalent of the NPC in most MMO's (expendable).

The two most valid points have been raised already in this thread as to why perma-death just won't work;

- Game longevity, there just wouldn't be any if you lose your char to one silly mistake, people would just walk away after losing their first significant character.

- Incentive to explore, again because of the risk of death there would be none, it would be a case of better safe than sorry.

I know what you are saying about thinking before you run in, but at the end of the day it is just a game and sometimes just running in for the hell of it is half of the fun. How many times have you challenged yourself in a game to try and complete something that should be damned near impossible? It may take a few tries, but you learn and get there in the end, improving your skills along the way. With perma-death in place, that fun process would become an absolute nightmare.

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Originally posted by jason_webb

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Originally posted by alicairo
Here is my other thought.
Consider you're playing the game & don't know who to associate yourself with?Well, what if Admiral Player has a 'service' of the entire games history & has not died once.You'd want to hang w/ him awhile wouldn't you?
Now consider if there is no perma-death.. It's left to guessing as to wether these people you're going on a mission with are death-prone or not.

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I just don't see perma-death working at all. Just in the point you raised above it doesn't work. You may want to hang with a veteran that hasn't died, but why the hell would he want to hang with you is you have no experience. The last thing he (or she) is going to want is some newbie coming in and taking his phasers off line just as he is in the middle of a life or death battle.

Just stepping back a bit, you mentioned some characters that died, but i will get a little geeky now. Tasha (i never considered a main char, but anyway) was revived in another dimension for further episodes of TNG, Data didn't really die because he dumped his brain into another andriod and Spock also came back to life on planet Genesis. As for red shirts, i don't remember one that made 'main character' status and they would be the equivalent of the NPC in most MMO's (expendable).

The two most valid points have been raised already in this thread as to why perma-death just won't work;

- Game longevity, there just wouldn't be any if you lose your char to one silly mistake, people would just walk away after losing their first significant character.

- Incentive to explore, again because of the risk of death there would be none, it would be a case of better safe than sorry.

I know what you are saying about thinking before you run in, but at the end of the day it is just a game and sometimes just running in for the hell of it is half of the fun. How many times have you challenged yourself in a game to try and complete something that should be damned near impossible? It may take a few tries, but you learn and get there in the end, improving your skills along the way. With perma-death in place, that fun process would become an absolute nightmare.

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Perma-Death worked successfully in these Star Trek Online games -

Strange New Worlds, TOS, DS9Muse, Trekmuse, ATS, DeltaMush & more.

It's not so easy as you think.. Perhaps it's these next generation of kids who think.. how can I get this guy good.. Oooh turn off his phasers.. But if the guy was an Admiral, why would you w/ no experience be at his tactical?

Anyway, it's simply a good idea.. perma-death

The goal of STO is to make it like the show.. You do not think it would be possible for your character to be revived or brought back in some manner as you've listed? I think it is.

There needs to be an IC aspect. You see your friend die & he's revived somewhere? Like a WOW graveyard? Or what? I just saw him die now he's back? How is that IC..

Star Trek games were always played In Character & this STO will ruin the history when they DO go too far & don't make this game perma-death.

Every 13 yr old will have their Captain character that's died 100 times or more.. sheesh I can't wait to play that game.

btw, Tasha was brought back to later die on Romulus
She was also considered a 'main' character.

Again, I'll repeat it, my opinion is that perma-death will REDUCE the number of deaths.
The only alternative is that no one can die at all, period.
It's almost the same as dying & coming back outta nowhere but instead you're knocked out & moved to the ship to awake in sick bay.
But how will they integrate it when ships explode or someone is vaporized.
In most of the text games if someone's ship exploded while they were disconnected they were considered to have escaped in a pod.

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Originally posted by alicairo
btw, Tasha was brought back to later die on RomulusShe was also considered a 'main' character.
Again, I'll repeat it, my opinion is that perma-death will REDUCE the number of deaths.The only alternative is that no one can die at all, period.

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OK, i'll concede to Tasha

I do not see where your logic lies in saying that Perma-death will lower the death rate in the game. Firstly we know absolutely no detail of the game mechanics yet, so you have no idea of how easy or hard it will be to die in the first place. Secondly, you cannot account for peoples differing skill levels at MMO's in general.

The only way i can see that perma-death would lower the death rate is that people would be too scared to do anything risky in the game because of the possability of being killed. Everyone would be orbiting earth or doing trade runs to saturn in cargo ships with the biggest threat being a rogue asteroid

The only game that i know of that came close to introducing perma-death was EvE, but even they have had to introduce more and more measures due to user demand so that this is now a near impossability as i understand it (i will concede to anyone who know better)

Perma-death in this game would sign it's death warrent straight away because anyone would cancel their account after playing for months, paying their subscription and then seeing all that work go down the drain because of a bug, lag or silly mistake.

Yeah.

Since I knew the game was to be made years before the deal was signed w/ the development company to make it I feel like I'm fairly certain how mechanics will work.. But they could go in a completely different direction from anything done before in a Trek game..  (I bet it will be many elements of many trek games & other games)

Still, I think it's too early to say perma-death would kill the game. I base this on the games that suck w/o perma-death.. WoW / Eve  .. Course many people dig these games.. But I tried & quit them both. Of course STO will probably be exploited in the same way as WoW & Eve & could lead to surprising deaths.. Course there is always bugs.. that could be an /appeal .. as far as LAG is concerned, consider you are on a ship.. you aren't the only one on the ship (unless you're in a shuttle) & I'd have to think the NPCs on your ship would be smarter then the NPCs fighting your ship.. at worst they'd turn tail & run back to a starbase if the Commander goes LD. A shuttle could even have an auto-pilot that will dock your shuttle if the pilot goes LD. (it wouldn't be IC but they could even have the ship object removed from space when the pilot goes LD & put back in @ the same spot when they return)

I believe perma-death is the way to go & I stand by it.
One of your thoughts about being more careful, yes, that will reduce deaths.. People coming together more to cooperate.. That will reduce deaths.. Simply having less things that can actually kill you in the game is also another way to reduce deaths.

Simply, I am tired of playing games where death is such a large part of the game but really ISN'T a consequence because at worst you lose a little exp.

Also, think of how famous some Characters will become when years down the road they are seemingly unkillable.

I just don't see it in these MMOs.. Where is the speration? Consider EverQuest, one 75 can seem the same as another 75 unless you start to question them.. but in STO, if perma-death is an aspect, you would see a big difference between a Captain who hasn't died & one who croaks twice a day.

Sir:

With all due respect to yoru postion and opinion, I fail to see how you can discount lag?

Example you on on a ship, you are doig yoru job just peachy, the battle is close and tight, shields on both ships are failing....

doh, the weapons officers justed dc'ed.... hello new character for EVERYONE on your now dead, blown up ship.

Be honest sir and ask yourself how many gamers would enjoy that? Yes you might, but look at it from a money making venture that PE has to look at it from.

You have cited other online games of star trek, to be honest I have not heard of them, therefore i can not say if thier gaming mechanics would work within this game.

I was very active in the SFC communities (still am), and in space combat lag is a killer. i know that currently pvp is not on the table ship to ship, but if they do go ahead as stated with adding other races down the road then they have to look at PD from the player ship versus palyer ship now, before they roll out the game. Like it or not SWG was not that bad before the devs tried to "fix" combat (CU, NGE). Once you have a system in place you have to live with it.

I think at the end of the day, you and I sir will have to agree to disagree on the subject of PD, i think it is wrong to FORCE on all the players, better if you must have that place it on a hard core server for those that want it.

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Originally posted by Seloth

Sir:

With all due respect to yoru postion and opinion, I fail to see how you can discount lag?

Example you on on a ship, you are doig yoru job just peachy, the battle is close and tight, shields on both ships are failing....

doh, the weapons officers justed dc'ed.... hello new character for EVERYONE on your now dead, blown up ship.

Be honest sir and ask yourself how many gamers would enjoy that? Yes you might, but look at it from a money making venture that PE has to look at it from.

You have cited other online games of star trek, to be honest I have not heard of them, therefore i can not say if thier gaming mechanics would work within this game.

I was very active in the SFC communities (still am), and in space combat lag is a killer. i know that currently pvp is not on the table ship to ship, but if they do go ahead as stated with adding other races down the road then they have to look at PD from the player ship versus palyer ship now, before they roll out the game. Like it or not SWG was not that bad before the devs tried to "fix" combat (CU, NGE). Once you have a system in place you have to live with it.

I think at the end of the day, you and I sir will have to agree to disagree on the subject of PD, i think it is wrong to FORCE on all the players, better if you must have that place it on a hard core server for those that want it.

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I hear your point.. Have you heard of chuckles space combat? Or Kludgespace?
Anyway, I have no position I'm just some dude.. 
Also, I believe that NPC StarFleet Officers / Crew will be pretty good..
Also, I believe the Captain's console will have a lot of function, including tactical.

Also have you noticed in the show? Even against the borg many ships were just disabled..
This is a common practice in the Star Trek world.. To bring the ship down but not to blow it up.

In kludge space Ships had shields, armor, & hull integrity. After a ship was disabled you had to unload a payload or more to blow it up. Remember, most of these vessels are mammoth & full of things like forcefields to keep integrity.
In the online games I played, yes, sometimes people were killed but most times they'd want your ship captured or the NPC or even the Player from the other Faction would just fly away.

It seems you are all thinking all your ships will be out there all alone.. What about Star Bases & Outposts & other vessels in the fleet.. Security sats & other objects including planets & planetary defenses, all to protect you from death.

A lot of those things, until players fill rolls, will be NPC operated & with you being StarFleet or at least in the Federation, they'll be aiding you.

Yes Yes I am speculating a lot, really I have no inside information or knowledge of how STO will be until I learn about it when the rest of you do.

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Originally posted by Ranyr
It's great to debate and all, and the perma-death thing has been done to death.

Fact of the matter is this, and it's the plain blunt truth. There will never be an MMO thats only death system is Perma-Death. They want to make money off the game they made, when people die and lose their entire character they most likely will not make another one. If I spent like 400 hours over the course of a year on a character and I was killed, that would be the end of that MMO for me.

Perma-Death systems will not help games generate subscribers and in turn income from subscriptions therefore in the words of Spock, it is illogical to think there should be perma-death. When we live in a future world order like the Federation where there is no financial greed then there can be perma-death. Until then the point is moot.

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Example : Character dies after having trained a lot of skills. A % of those points that were over the standard amount of points normally allocated to a new character in a chargen, were given to their next character.
Example : Character dies with a massive amount of wealth. Their next character could be a brother or a family member who inherits this fortune.

Yes wealth could be converted to a clout system.
Example : Picard had the clout to be appointed Captain of the Enterprise.

(Granted these examples are taken from what are now considered very old Online Star Trek games.)

Hmm, I don't think Spock would say that :D
But maybe ;)

Also, I read about peoples ideas for re-spawning.. STO, the next Unreal Tournament or Planetside???
I mean come on, is Star Trek Online the game where respawning is commonplace?
Argh :(