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AoC: Yet Another Pointless PVP Server?

Posted by vajuras Tuesday May 20 2008 at 12:17PM
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Godager: We have been playing with various versions of PvP penalties because we know, from a hardcore point of view, what they want to do is not to kill, but to punish their opponent.

First off when killing an opponent in PVP the punishment is really just a side benefit. The goal is to merely keep gankers out of space (EVE Online - Sovereignty PVP) and discourage them from coming back. The punishment is enforcement- not griefing. They came to our house and got dealt with. If you dont give players the power to protect their own lands, then there is no player enforced order.

Think about real life if you will. A burglar breaks into your house in the middle of the night. If there is no law enforcement, this thief can keep coming back. That is pointless and pure choas.... Why do you Devs think PVP Servers are way less numerous then PVE Servers? Because even us hardcore pvpers wonder why should we create an avatar on the server without any reward for the danger. In EVE Online, when you go to 0.0 (FFA space) there is huge benefits over safe space (high sec). There is a fortune in minerals in every belt. Rare ores everywhere. The rats (NPCs) have HUGE bounties. And so forth..... Reward me for my risks. Risk / Reward hello this is so basic.....

Age of Conan might be on the right track with their Siege/Border Kingdoms PVP (at least in theory) but I wonder what is the point of their PVP centric servers (world PVP outside of BK). It appears there will be no rewards at all for world pvp. Instead, they will be shoving pvpers into instances to play Capture The Flag. What the FRAK!!! Never mind us pvpers have been doing CTF since Quake/Unreal.Yeah, its brand new stuff for the RPGers that never played anything else but come on even those guys have seen this in World Of Warcraft... Funny, hard to imagine King Conan playing CTF for fun but whatever....

I dont get it why give us a huge PVP server but dont even put victory conditions anywhere in it? What is the point??????

Not to mention I hear this game is heavily sharded they say. If that's true thats another ding against world pvp.

So, I can understand you guys dont want to risk losing a single customer but seriously what is the point of yet another PVP Server where players will just keep respawning all night long and fighting pointlessly over nothing. Mind you, I am not talking bout Border Kingdoms. That actually looks decent according to the interviews. But what I am talking bout what is the allure of playing on the PVP Server? You can enjoy Border Kingdoms on Normal Servers right did I miss something

Well at least they did provide an FFA PVP Server. But alas, it is not a PVP centric server. I cant earn rewards from world pvp. I will simply level like 5x slower then PVE-Normal Servers. Well, waiting to see what the pvpers think of the Siege PVP and Player Run Cities. That sounds like good elements too me so let's see how that works out. And hopefully the Border Kingdoms PVP will be rocking hard yo.

And what's up with the AoC forums now its' not visible to the public anymore?

Anyway I planned on sticking with EVE Online for the time being in any case but would have been nice to have a fun little distraction on the side. Guess I'll wait for the game to mature more and add on more PVP elements

What Is A TankMage? From Pen and Paper to City of Heroes

Posted by vajuras Sunday May 4 2008 at 9:33AM
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I noticed a lot of confusion all around forums and my recent blog what a "TankMage" really is. What a darn shame man this concept has been around since Pen & Paper predating Ultima Online and Meridian 59.

So time for a history lesson... In MUDs, TankMages were a combination of different Classes. Here is what one MUD in particular allowed players to do:

You would have all the basic Primary Classes available like a traditional Diku-MUD:





Okay where things got interesting players could assign in which area they wanted to specialize like so:

Rogue 10%

Mage 60%

Warrior 20%

Priest 10%

So, you essentially took 100 points skill point cap and distributed this over the various disciplines. That was one way to arrive at a TankMage.

The other format was give players a pool of skill points and as they grind out the skill points you allow them to distribute their skill points into the desired areas. But the more you invested into a skill, the more diminishing returns resulted.

Before all that we had GURPS and HERO systems (Champions Online will use HERO system). They also used the Skill Point system, allowing players to distribute skill-points into their desired areas.

MMOs that were Tank-Magey were Ultima Online, Meridian 59, Asheron's Call, and City of Heroes. I will focus on City of heroes because that's a current MMO. What they did was interesting. Right before release at E3, Jack (CEO) decided to drastically simplify the game and changed it from a skill-based system into a Class based system. See, their fanbase they attracted were players from Everquest 1 (EQ). EQ players expect simple, clear Class based systems. So this is what Cryptic did. They got rid of their diverse skill-based system and went Class based route. However, unlike EQ2 and their ilk, City of Heroes was very freeform allowing players to combine powersets to create their own superhero. City of Heroes was very, very much like EQ we even had XP Debt penalty (for a small time in PVP there was XP debt penalty as well if another player blasted you off a building that was hella funny)

So you have Rogue (Stalker), Tank (Tanker), Mage (Blaster) in CoX games however you can pick a generic new archetype they introduced called Defender (Hero side / blue) or Corrupter (Villian / red). Also, they allowed players to grab powers from a generic pool. This allowed a Tanker for example to grab a long range eye beam skill so he can be like Superman. So common powers any hero should have like Teleport, Superspeed, Superjump, punches, kicks, etc were all available in the common pool. Lastly, they placed a 'power cap' in which forced players to limit their builds. The original intent though was that Defender was supposed to be a support type. Their buffs wouldn't benefit themselves but rather other players. They are not supposed to be big damage dealers either. Corrupters (Villian side) was supposed to be a Damage primary (Mage) and Priest/Buffer secondary (Priest).

How did players turn this into a TankMage- an all powerful entity? Read on.....

So here we have different types of TankMages. Everyone has their own specialties. There were some types of Defender that could heal really well (Empaths). There were other types that could Debuff really awesome. There were other Classes of Defenders that were excellent at both worlds (Debuff, Healing, etc). So within an Archetype, you see players could mix powersets to develop their favorite hero.

Somewhere along the line. Players discovered they could 'overlap' buffs. I dont know when this was introduced. Maybe this feature always existed. But via overlapping buffs these young supermen discovered they could push their fellow squishies into *GodHood*. See, CoX games have a cap for resistances and such. So take a Sonic/Bubble Defender. Some of his buffs was already making this squishy a mini-tank to begin with. Now add another Bubble Defender to the team and there- we got crazy overlap. Now add in a Kinetics defender in which can keep your mana regen (STamina its called in CoX). Now we got that whole covered. Add in an Empath Defender now we got crazy heals and even more mana. Add in a Radiation Defender now we got crazy debuffs and even more heals and more damage output. If you get a chance try to find an SG vs SG PVP film on youtube. You will literally see players sit there and overlap buffs on each for a few minutes before they start fighting lol. This is how PVE worked too.

TankMages were born. Defenders could cover each other's holes and buff each other through the roof!

Now, I covered blue side but I was a Villian primarily. So red side we had Corrupters. However, the Devs gave our Corrupters some powers from defender side. TankMage born. To make things even more tasty, we had great AOE. But there was a problem....

Corrupters were weaker then blues (Defenders). Corrupters were supposed to be Damage dealers however the Devs made Defenders so damn good us Corrupters were being *outdamaged* by them. You could take a Sonic/Rad Corrutper and do a Rad/Sonic Defender comparison. Defender side was doing more damage. Add to that- Defenders got better 'epic' level powers. Add to that, Defenders got crazy bonuses in PVP. Villains got decimated in PVP.

So, what drove me away from City of Heroes ultimately was the PVP balance between Hero and Villian. However, I still highly recommend that title was fun times man. For endgame encounter I kid you not we took only 1 Brute (Tank type) and 7 Corrupters. That was most optimal but we could bring 8-Corrupters if we had too. We had it all worked out as a Science and we had endgame content on farm status

Was this boring? Hell no we still had clearly defined roles you see and more tactical options opened up because everyone could essentially 'don armor'. We had Corrupters hovering to reduce aggro, snares (Snowstorms) to slowdown mobs, and everyone was long range so we could kite. Was great times and good fun. But as you see- this caused some serious envy amongst the other Classes because they got 'optional' slots in some groups. Not saying Masterminds or the other Class types are not good but just telling it how I experienced things for over a year when I played (pre-Invention). I was there pre-ED and long after post-ed.

Hopefully soon they will release Champions Online which will be even more Tank-Magey because its based on HERO system. Until then you can try City of Heroes



1. Wasn't it boring to have a Team of TankMages?

You obviously didnt play City of Heroes. Just because you were a Defender didnt mean we all had the same build. There are many types of Tankmages in that game. Solo, you might not be a true TankMage. What turned you into one was being 'buffed' by a fellow hero in which turned you into an effective TankMage.


2. In World of Warcraft they have Shaman is that a TankMage? It can heal, toss bolts, and even self rez like Jesus!

I played that Class in World of Warcraft for a long time. Fun times. But to be a really good TankMage you need to have the best buffs in the game I would say. This way you can buff another player and essentially "give him armor" so he can Tank. In World of Warcraft my Shaman couldnt take much punishment. But a Druid....... When you have a TankMage on your hands you will know because you can slice up any encounter with them. You are all the same 'Class'. So if you see a raid full of Druids takedown raid instances you know you have a TankMage on your hands.

That's the key- if a Class is so diverse they can overlap buffs and reduce the need for other Classes


3. Didn't this suck for the other Classes?

In City of Heroes players considered it a challenge to take a one Class 8-man through an instance. Part of the fun was optimizing our team distribution and figuring what mix of powersets could do it. I saw All 8-Dominator teams popup to do endgame instances. Not sure if they made it. Dont think they did but they tried! You also had All 8-Mastermind groups try.

The key to making a Class diverse enough to become a true TankMage is have powerful support. That is #1. Next, have decent damage potential. But if we can buff that like we did in CoX games then you might have a true TankMage.


4. Wasn't the TankMage imbalanced?

Not really. Solo, no one was a complete TankMage. But with a buff from a fellow Corrupter/Defender, you could become a true TankMage. Since all endgame content is done with teams- this is how TankMages popped up. However, I would admit some Solo builds were pretty TankMagey though like Ice/Rad build using an Epic power that gave them great shields

The Time of TankMages

Posted by vajuras Friday May 2 2008 at 12:51PM
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I Have a Dream. I dream of the day when we can all don armor and fight together side-by-side the way God intended wars to be fought. No longer will our groups fall apart because the only healer we had in our group has to go. There will be overlap, plenty of it. No more waiting 2 hours to find a healer. There will be plenty of overlap.

Everyone will have some tanking ability. If a mob wants to target one team member in our group then everyone else can start sending some heals his way in a pinch

We will all be TankMages and our roles will be dictated by the arrangements of the groups in the 'army'


Imagine, a unit of 50 TankMages go to kill a Dragon. So, there will be 'squads' within this unit. Each squad contains 5 members. Only 1 person in a squad is the BACKUP 'Healer'. He has a star by his name indicating he volunteers for this role. But this is a backup role. We only heal in a pinch.

Note, a TankMage game wont have grouping restrictions. We decided ourselves to form a group of 50 because thats all we need to storm the Castle or aggressive enemy NPC town.

When the mobs decide to focus fire on a target, the backup healer will help heal that target. The aggressed Tankmage will also try to heal himself or attack. Just whatever they decide is the best strategy to storm the enemy NPC city

Notice we are not raiding a dungeon here- we are raiding a populated NPC city complete with guards and really tough mobs that dybnamically seekout the weakest target and destroys them utterly.


Imagine PVP- and loot everywhere. It's no longer about our gear our player skill can come into play. Perhaps in this title the armor you wear provides you benefits in a specific area. Perhaps in this title armor is just armor- thats it. It merely provides more protection and takes durability loss over time. Perhaps in this title Guilds work together to takeover resource nodes and we can employ NPCs to do the boring resource gathering

Imagine character progression. Be anything you want to be- pure crafter or a form of TankMage. Every player can learn to Tank because that is basic common sense every soldier in an army wears Armor. Anything else has no place here. Then you can pick to specialize in magic branches. Whether you learn new skills through skill-based progression or XP makes no huge difference too me. Whatever is the most fun and works for that title. as long as we can explore the ultimate potential- become a TankMage

The time of TankMages needs to return. I think the one MMO that nails this formula right will be a huge success. Right now we see WELL Online, Earthrise, LinkRealms, and others  promising to come out soon. Let's hope TankMages time will return and it will be done right!

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