There is one type of FFA PVP Server many pvpers don't want to play on and that's an FFA PVP server without consequences. In the absence of a death penalty its just plain senseless and rampant griefing.
When I wrote my earlier article on FFA PVP I was thinking about a server that has a Death penalty.
I was posting in Age of Conan forums here about why a harsh DP can be good. This is the illustation I gave:
Imagine an FFA server without consequences for griefing (killing helpless lowbies). There is a high level named Screw. Screw is bored so he goes to the lowbie leveling areas where there is plenty of activity. Screw begins to idly start killing the low level players to his heart content. No one can stop him because Levels are in play (he's Level 80 they are Level XXX). The anti-PKs finally arrive they easily dispatch Screw. After about 20 minutes they don't see Screw anymore so they leave. Screw was hiding all this time and now that the anti-PKs are gone he can renew his killing spree.
This is what happens when there is no death penalty. The bad guys can just keep killin' and killin'. This is BAD, our victims will surely outnumber the Killers. It only takes one Killer to make everyone's life hell
Now rewind that story and imagine what would happen if the game made griefers FULLY Lootable. Imagine a game somewhat like Lineage 2 but refined so that the victim cannot be looted. However, if you are the attacker, you turn red. You are freely lootable.
Imagine that above story now. Screw goes to lowbie areas and kills all the lowbies. The anti-PKs arrive (high level players) and easily dispatch Screw. Because Screw was a 'red' he can now be fully looted. Screw is now crushed and goes to the forums screaming about the injustice how the anti-PKs jumped him and looted him clean. Justice was served
Now there are some minor logistics. For this type of ruleset you should allow Guilds to declare war on other guilds. The idea is to protect the Casuals against harm. This is a ruleset nearly everyone can kind of enjoy. World of Warcraft has taught us "pvpers will follow the loot". This means they will swarm PVP that gives them rewards. Jumping a lowbie in this ruleset is not profitable. But if you declare war on other war-like guilds it is profitable
This is why people want consequences. This is a simple system that the Age of Conan developers should consider I think for their FFA PVP server. Age of Conan looks great graphically and many of their ideas are really solid. With some refinement on the FFA PVP server it could become truly legendary
I suppose there are many other punishments like loss of pvp experience and stuff like that. So that might work well too. I look forward to AoC
In-game consequences are only a useful deterrent when the penalty reaches the player. One way of doing that is to ensure that all sources of empowerment that the player character possesses are impacted when that player character is penalized.
Taking away a character's possessions is only useful if the source of the character's ability to exercise power comes entirely from their possessions. If a character inherently possesses power, then the character can walk up buck naked and simply stomp the low level characters. This is particularly true in mana-only magic systems. Looting the griefer's possessions is hardly a deterrent.
So if you want to implement consequences in a game of levels, those consequences must be that the level 80 is putting levels on the line when he dies. If he goes into a level 10 area, then he is putting 70 levels on the line. Those levels can be looted by anyone who kills him. Of course, they are only useful to those who are below level 70, so the best that can be done is to have a high level gang come along, wipe out this Screw character, and let all the lowbies have a level-up feast on his corpse. Screw ends up at level 10 as a result of his transgression.
So make sure that your harsh consequences of death are focused on whatever it is that empowers the player characters. Whether equipment, levels, skills, magical knowledge, enchantments, faction, gold, or some combination of any or all of these things, when a death penalty is put in force, it must affect the means of empowerment if it is going to have bite.
In a game about power.
Sat Mar 01 2008 11:45AMFirst off after reading this i'd say its more about pvp griefing than "ffa pvp consequences", so i'd say as a kinda solution to the problem make it so you cant attack anyone who isnt within 10 more / less levels than you.
Also take into consideration why "screw" is acting the way he is, maybe he was happy doing some questing when a group of 5 all level 80s (like screw) ganked him, an he said to himself 'ok its part of the game they killed me but i really want to finish this quest maybe they wont kill me again seems as i wont attack' so he goes back to the spot to try and finish his quest (that no one else he knows wants to help him do it as its more of a solo quest), and they kill him again after waiting around for him(rince and repeat this as manny times as nessesary). So to relieve abit of his frustration he went killing lowbies, not manny people are Total a**holes killing lowbies for the sheer idiocey of it some just want to vent frustation in a griefing way.
I've played Linage2 and dont like the way there "anti griefer" system works cause it makes you just NOT want to PvP cause you dont want to lose your items you've spent so much time / money gaining. Now if this game was free to play and free download take away my items all you want hell perma death my toons for all i care, but i and Manny others out there Wont pay to play a game where you can set yourself back months in gear for simpley killing some idiot who was buggin you( insert better reason here).
Sat Mar 01 2008 12:51PMMajor hole in your theory: Screw can kill lowbies without using top or rare gear. The anit-PKs show up, kill screw, take his stuff then screw respawns and visits the bank for a set of standard gear to keep the gankjoy going.
By the time most characters get to the level cap, they have way more money than they actually need. Replacing cheap gear doesn't sting one wit. And Screw only needs cheap gear to keep killing lowbies.
Sat Mar 01 2008 1:38PMHey JB.
JB writes - "So make sure that your harsh consequences of death are focused on whatever it is that empowers the player characters. Whether equipment, levels, skills, magical knowledge, enchantments, faction, gold, or some combination of any or all of these things, when a death penalty is put in force, it must affect the means of empowerment if it is going to have bite."
You got the right idea JB the AoC devs are already taking away PVP experience. Taking away additional loot would also help. One of the most effective is long travel times but I dont think thats applicable to AoC. So since AoC already will take away PVP experience from what I read, I was also tossing out some other ideas.
Taking away their loot will work pretty nicely I think. We will have to see what they do with Casters when the game releases. But if they run around butt naked I'm pretty sure they are just a sitting duck for even two lower levels guys to gang up on and takedown. 1 anti-PK should be able to take them down with ease however
Loot is really just "additional levels" so not wearing any at all in a Level based game is serious suicide. In a game like Asheron's Call 1 / UO the naked mage problem was more applicable. In a Level based game, Loot normally boosts players' performance by a wide margin. My opinion has always been Mages should be required to use Staffs to cast for additional Transparency
Geminiv - "the problem make it so you cant attack anyone who isnt within 10 more / less levels than you."
Yeah thats a direct solution but it defeats the purpose of an FFA PVP server. My solution might not work sense AoC has raiding but they could also look into Permenant Item Decay and other less drastic solutions.
"So to relieve abit of his frustration he went killing lowbies, not manny people are Total a**holes killing lowbies for the sheer idiocey of it some just want to vent frustation in a griefing way."
Yeah I know but the lowbies are defenseless and you are wasting a lot of their time. Why should Screw get to murder them over and over without incuring risk to himself? In EVE Online you can gank a lowbie sure- but it takes balls cause Concord will be after you. But no penalty at all? Newbies would die left and right in EVE Online.
"I've played Linage2 and dont like the way there "anti griefer" system works cause it makes you just NOT want to PvP"
This idea is more akin to EVE Online whereas we end up with natural geographical pvp zones. Lineage 2 was a little bit different since you werre unable to fight back altogether w/o worrying bout losing loot. This system is a bit different because you can still defend yourself
Sat Mar 01 2008 1:41PMJimmy wrote- "
Major hole in your theory: Screw can kill lowbies without using top or rare gear. The anit-PKs show up, kill screw, take his stuff then screw respawns and visits the bank for a set of standard gear to keep the gankjoy going.
By the time most characters get to the level cap, they have way more money than they actually need. Replacing cheap gear doesn't sting one wit. And Screw only needs cheap gear to keep killing lowbies."
True, but Age of Conan is pursuing sidekicking for PVP (1-20). It will work much differently from other MMOs so the normal rules might not be applicable
So I suspect they are trying to empower lowbies more to defend themselves. A lack of loot will make them much weaker
Disclaimer: I'm not sure how PVP sidekicking will work I am going by an interview I read with AoC producer
This idea might not be perfect since Age of Conan does have raiding which throws off somethings. Not sure how to make player looting compatiable with that
Sat Mar 01 2008 2:06PMVanguard was FFA with no consequences. I wrote an arcile about that a while ago (http://www.zergwatch.com/News/Examining-MMORPG-FFA-PVP.html).
FFA PVP needs to have consequences or else it just sucks unless you can roam w/ friends 24/7. There needs to be some sort of honor system (no not honor like wow honor), but a system where you are rewarded for killing players of equal or better skill and penalized or outcast in some way for ganking lowns.
Sat Mar 01 2008 11:35PMDon't get me wrong, I like gankin' noobs.. but if I knew i'd lose important faction or status for doing it, i would only do it occasionaly.
Death penalty matters not. Its all about fun. If PvP is fun, people will play.
Sun Mar 02 2008 12:45AMFirst month when I started playing UO, I had no idea what I was doing. I got ganked 10 times a day. Did I go whine and cry on message boards that they should carebearize the game? No. Eventually I advanced, got better at pvp, played smarter, got some backup. Then after a few more months I was ganking the gankers.
AOC is a game focused on combat and the storyline takes place in a war for crying out loud. People should be able to kill anybody they want. If "screw" wants to gank people 24/7, he's going to be the most hated man in the game and thousands of people on the server will kill him as soon as they see him.
Sun Mar 02 2008 6:02AMThere is one game that has it done right, EVE online. Why? Because you select the role you want by simply flying another ship. And it is that role that decides if you will be a loser or winner in a PVP battle. Newbies can fly frigs (week old chars) equip stuff and go out and kill others (years old chars).
The first company that creates a game based on EVE in a D&D setting will be the first company that will replace WoW as the greatest MMO out there.
Sun Mar 02 2008 6:13PMSweet the EVE Online players feel me. We can kill newbies in EVE but we have to incur a risk while in the process....
At the very least what I'd like to see for FFA AoC server is player looting but perhaps no looting for noobs 10 levels below you.
just tossing out ideas....
Sun Mar 02 2008 10:37PM"AOC is a game focused on combat and the storyline takes place in a war for crying out loud. People should be able to kill anybody they want. If "screw" wants to gank people 24/7, he's going to be the most hated man in the game and thousands of people on the server will kill him as soon as they see him. "
I have nothing against ganking really. I mostly wrote this article like this:
If we cannot have 100% full loot then a second option might be this suggestion in this article. I think full looting would also solve this issue BTW much cleaner. Although I admit, I dont think you can trust players to handle REDs they are not on 24/7. So we cant depend on any anti-PKs to ever kill the outlaws.
So rest assure, I'm for ganking, full loot, etc. But I also admire EVE Online PVP as well as Classic UO.
I think Lineage 2 system could work to but would need a lot of refinement
Sun Mar 02 2008 11:00PMMMORPG.com writes:
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