It seems that people are grasping to the idea that dying should have strict penalties. Also lumped in there seems to be the idea that if a player ganks another player, than the ganker should suffer some penalty for the action.
Strict Penalties Relating to Death
I have never really understood the idea of strict death penalties. I do believe penalties should exist. I just dont understand how strict death penalties will encourage players to PvP. I believe that dropping some money and random inventory items is penalty enough. That is, with a mild res sickness timer to deter, death, regank maneuvers.
Gankers and Penalties Related to Ganking
I constantly read, in open world RvR discussions, people saying that the penalties to ganking are never balanced. I just dont understand this concept. Logically, if im an assassin. I sneak up on you in some wilderness, with no one to see but the bear you're trying to stab. I gank you and you die. So, what kind of penalty should I receive? Personally, i believe, none. Why you ask. I doubt the bear, whom I just saved from death, is going to go to town and be like, hey, im a fucking bear, and I just witnessed a murder. Is the guy I just killed going to rez and be like, hey town watch, this fucker named t0nyd just killed me. You look alive to me fucker. Shrug...
In my opinion, your going to have a couple types of open world PvP games.
1. Faction Based
This type is much easier to control. Just dont allow any faction on faction fighting. Now you know who your enemies are and if you need help, you know who to ask. Ganking still occurs, but there is no reason to have penalties due to you dying to the opposite faction, its simply part of the game...
2. Free For All
Free for all is pretty much a niche crowd type. If items and levels didnt matter much, you might actually see this type get a larger audience. Due to levels and items always mattering to the extreme, FFA will never have a large audience due to massive amounts of noob frustration.
In the end, i dont believe that you need strict death penalties nor anti gank mechanics. If you give everyone a fighting chance, then no one will feel bad when they die. Its the standard MMORPG mentality of " I spend countless hours grinding so I should be tougher than you and automantically win ", that ruins FFA PvP. Simply put, 3 vs 1, i dont care what your level is, the 1 should have a tough fight on his hands...
Oh, now you've done it. Let me first start by saying that you will most likely get one of these responses:
1. Game suggestions. "You should play <game> because it is just like this!"
2. "What you want is a FPS."
3. Fanatics who think they want extreme penalties on death, up to and including perma-death -- but really don't.
4. People who have played MUDs and understand exactly what you're getting at.
This goes hand in hand with one of your earlier posts: 40% level, 20% gear, 40% intelligent play.
The more you boost Intelligent Play as a common factor, the less you will have to worry about consequences in death. So what if you lose a bit of xp or drop your equipment (or even ALL of your equipment) if that isn't the main factor. If you have 5 sets of equipment stored, you go and get the next set and head out to fight again. If you lose some xp, but it's not hard to gain, then who cares?
However, if either equipment or xp are important (as they are in most mmo's to date), then penalties are game breaking. What if your character dropped all of his equipment in Warcraft? Or, if you lost a days worth of experience in WAR to a death? People would play once. Period.
Maybe 80% intelligent play, 10% level, and 10% equipment is the better way to go if you want consequences. Expand on the world and interacting with it (politics, religion, crafting, economy, careers, etc), and not just rely on the character itself as the sole means of finding 'gain'. Eliminate xp altogether and go skill based. Make equipment so common that you can get anything you want as soon as you figure out what mob carries the item -- as long as you can beat that mob.
The more grind the less a penalty fits the game. The less grind, the more available it becomes. That's why so many games rely on a shallow penalty... they have way too much grinding involved. How fair would it be to ask people to grind out even more xp and eq each time they die?
Oh well, maybe I just want a FPS.
- LC
Mon Dec 08 2008 4:24PM ReportThe bear going to town, yep pissed myself on that one. F'in classic
Mon Dec 08 2008 6:12PM ReportThere should be a penalty not for pking but for ganking. If u gank someone over and over i think something should happen and not just something little.. If u pvp that fine. There someething alot of people miss and dont understand. War = Gear Sorc = Nukes or a class with a pet . You have tanking classes that without gear are useless and then u have casting classes that dont need gear and can own you. So that just something to think about. There are ways to do FFA PVP but no one has done it yet.
Mon Dec 08 2008 6:24PM Report@Birken
Ok so who decides what the definition of ganking is? I can already tell that yours will be vastly different than mine. Maybe you could name me even one game that doesn't have ganking in it? If there is PvP there will be ganking no matter what. There is no player that plays on PvP server that can say they have never ganked. People should stop fixating on an aspect of the game that has been around for over 10 years, and just accept the fact that it is a part of a PvP game. So you can either live with it or never PvP, cause if you choose to PvP you will at some point in your game time be ganked and/or griefed.
Mon Dec 08 2008 6:53PM ReportDAOC the perfect PVP design. Nothing more to say.
Mon Dec 08 2008 7:01PM Report@ Vistaakah
If you took DAoC and...
1. Equipment gain through PvP at all levels.
2. Lessened the Impact of Mez. (30+ seconds of mez is total gayness. I pay to play, not pay to sit and watch)
3. Balanced the classes through mostly the important levels. (thid and Molo atleast)
4. Buffs from player classes only. (this way buffer classes have a use, fuck potion buffs)
5. Pets should not walk through fucking doors.
6. Give shrooms line of sight checks for jesus. Jesus really wants that.
7. Bring back the old archers. (the new archers are bleh)
I might agree with you...
Mon Dec 08 2008 7:13PM ReportI definately agree with your stance on open world PvP penalties in relation to ganking people, however I myself would like to see the inclusion of harsher death penalties in games that are supposed to be PvP orientated. Of course in saying this, I'm advocating that such games should have a death penalty included as a design element.
Tue Dec 09 2008 4:01AM ReportSiftified -
I don't understand the correlation between harsher death penalties and 'games that are supposed to be PvP oriented'. Could you please explain?
Thanks,
LC
Tue Dec 09 2008 9:01AM ReportI think they should have different servers with just completely different ideas for games like this. It would allow a lot more people to get what they want while letting the hardcores get the death pentalies, and then other people the ability to make their character stronger on their own time and learn to fight at their own pace. For myself I would like to have one on each server, one to learn the game, pick up strategies and just enjoy higher level content without worrying about being ganked. Then jump onto other server with the constant thrill of watching my back and sticking with other players all the time and hope they don't stab me in the back.
Tue Dec 09 2008 10:38AM ReportMMORPG.com writes:
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