Meandering through MMORPG's...

Author: t0nyd

Bad game mechanics and the natural tendencies of players to mini-max lead to most of this.  The fact that long time players generally feel entitled to a win is a product of the progression system designed to keep you on their hampster wheel.

Low lvl players in most games have fewer (usually weaker) skills, stats and are forced into pathetic gear.  All of this re-enforces the feeling of  "progression" as you lvl.  It's no accident that many games remove player skill and tactics from their progression models, it's a deliberate choice on their part.  This is fine for PvE solo player style games, but is a very bad model for FFA PvP.

Mini-maxing- it's not just about stats.  With low lvl players a near 0 risk option why would you ever attack anything else?  It's simple risk reward spread out over time.  There's usually some reward in game to make it worth your time in a PVP centric game, the improvement in rewards for challenging fights usually isn't enough to out weigh the added risk and time per fight though. 

Internet forums pretty well prove that most people are pricks when they feel anonomous.  That feeling is very much a part of MMOs as well.  It makes misery (real or projected) the main reward for those that hunt N00bs.

No flame here.

100%  /agreed

Most classes in SB can get track via Bounty hunter or Hunstman. Mostly the only ones that cant are mage and healers based classes, with the exception of druids.

You have multiple toon slots for a good reason, you assign a use to each toon. for example you keep a healer for mine fights and banes, a bard for the same reason, perhaps a burner toon, a good farming toon, like a warlock or druid, and then you have your solo gank toon, which are generally stealth classes with track. One character wont fulfill all the different situations you will come across.

Personally I like my nightstalker for ganking, you have your own HoT, dispell debuff, and can still crank out damage, smart scouts wont mess with you, stupid ones will provide you with free pots and XP.

It can be argued that the elements which have put you off the Shadowbane type of open world PvP, would not and have not, put other players off. In saying this I would argue that it is you, and not "people" that are opposed to the idea of open world PvP.

A true open PvP world should not have to cater for people who can handle being ganked, or people who need to feel comfortable and at ease constantly. These worlds are designed with people who can hang tough and tackle the constant hurdles and challenges that are presented.

In short, man up. Find another guild, this time preferably one with a decent standing in the community, or at least one that wont dissapear overnight. Oh and this time, log in a little more often so if you guild city does get baned, you're there to help out ... that's what a guild would expect of you, right?

I too would like to see a good open pvp game but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. Another factor I would like to add to why open pvp games wont work is simply cause of people. A guy gets on and will kill people all day for no real reason other then he gets enjoyment of annoying others. This is a mentality that ruins games like that, I see killing for a purpose or out of a duel with someone, but just going around ganking with no purpose seems pointless and only causes people to lose enjoyment and thus leads to fail.

I assume that is why more and more games are coming out with people forced to join sides for then you sort of have a reason. Though the reason is still generally flawed, "he aint on my side, so he dies." Too simple and almost barbaric but that is the mentality of people and why the games wont work,

@ Siftified

 I would agree with you, it may be me, but I wont in this case. Obviously it isnt me or Shadowbane wouldnt have such a small players. Its like down to 3 servers and its free to play.

 We are talking about a semi-complicated game, which obviously, most players want simple. We are also talking about a game that caters to time spent players and not intelligent play. You totally ignored that part of my post.

 Also telling me to log in when my guild city is getting baned is pretty lame. If I could have loged in, I would have. Life happens. Your assumptions are not needed...

Okay fair call on the real life > games part there. However the argument that shadowbane caters for time spent rather than simple player skill is not true. Most friendly guilds can get your character to lvl 75 within a week, at the very longest.

I agree that there is a learning curve for Shadowbane, probably patly due to the archaic interface, and partly due to mouse-click movement and camera angles. However once again, I would argue that these learning curves are more often than not, embraced and wanted in open PvP games. If the whole idea is to fight another player and have the more skillful player win, then surely there needs to be a large number of elements to master, otherwise there will be lesser degree of separation, skillwise.

Also the argument that Shadowbane has failed as an open PvP world because of its lack of servers/players is a ridiculous argument. Shadowbane came out when Asheron's Call, DaOC and Everquest were the main players in the MMO realm. It was pretty damn big for its time and held a large number of highly populated servers for a number of years. It was NOT a failure on Shadowbanes behalf that has led to less servers and lower populations, instead it could be attributed to the flooding of the MMO market with games which boast far better graphics and more features (most of which we could argue do not deliver many of these features). It's kind of like saying  The Beatles failed to make decent music since they see less albums sales and radio time these days.

Good writeup. Its good to see a well thought out post with rational replies. If you posted this on the chronicle.Ubi forums all you read  is "Crai more nooob" "Learn to play"  "STFU" "Its a free game if you dont like it LEAVE"

Also the argument that Shadowbane has failed as an open PvP world because of its lack of servers/players is a ridiculous argument. Shadowbane came out when Asheron's Call, DaOC and Everquest were the main players in the MMO realm. It was pretty damn big for its time and held a large number of highly populated servers for a number of years. It was NOT a failure on Shadowbanes behalf that has led to less servers and lower populations, instead it could be attributed to the flooding of the MMO market with games which boast far better graphics and more features (most of which we could argue do not deliver many of these features). It's kind of like saying The Beatles failed to make decent music since they see less albums sales and radio time these days.

Did you just compare Shadowbane to The Beatles?  Uh, no.  Shadowbane's developers themselves have called the game a failure, and are looking to correct their mistakes in their next game.  WoW and DAoC came out when AC, UO and EQ were going strong, took their customers and kept many of them.  I'm not going to say Shadowbane is a horrible game, but saying it is a great game that only got hurt because of market conditions, is the hight of naiveite.

I think PvP open worlds won't work, at least for now, is due to the lack of consequences for one's actions.  If you kill someone, then you should start to develop negative relation points (with other people).  Other players can see that you're a jerk, and might attack you, ostracize you and/or avoid you. 

Also, there should be somewhat of a balance.  So, a mob of low levels should easily destroy a few maxed level players. 

Open world PvP games could be bettered through consideration of how reality deals with "ganking."  Why doesn't everyone kill everyone else?  Well then the world would plunge into Hobbe's "state of nature."  How do we avoid this chaos?  Well history shows us that people created governments to steer clear of this chaos.  This is just an idea to show that narrowness in games create flaws like in Shadowbane.  You can't implement something like open PvP worlds and ignore the rest of the spectrum...it's....an oblivious way to conduct an mmo...

A level 75 attacking a newb. Does this even need a explanation for why the game failed? Shadowbane was a great concept. Unfortunately, open pvp does not work. There has to be limits imposed to make the fights challenging. A level 75 needs no tactics or skill to kill a newb.

Open PVP with no restrictions will never be popular or niche. If it was possible, then Shadowbane wouldn't have failed. That is why EVE is so niche. There are serious consquences when you gank newbies in newbie zones. EVE has done that right.

IMO, the only way to do it is to enforce lvl restricted area. Like WAR (or EVE) has done with their tiered zones(not their open pvp servers which they borked with the 20 lvls above you can kill you rule).

You just posted why I loath PvP so much. Now add in the leet speaking jerks, and you'll have it perfectly.

Open Pvp could and will work again just when is the question. There  is alot of thing a game could do to make open pvp work. By over power classes it really destroys the whole system look at vanguard saga of heros. There are still ways to beat even the over OP classes. Like RL there are Police that protect  you , So  guard that attack with conflict . Faction for your race when killed no one want to have to grind faction for hours casue they decided to gank over and over. Make cash so it not safe. Dont show lev if somone cant figure out how high or low u are there not going to want to chance loseing (No one want to lose )  Maybe iam just rambling on but Pvp has worked and will keep working. We just need somone to make a good mmo rpg. There hasnt been one sence UO and EQ  well that what i think. 

Now some...will understand why  many games like EVE...WAR...DAOC etc have implemented FACTION warfare.Having 1/3 or 1/2 of the gaming population on your side takes the edge of of pure pvp and in MY opinion if far more fun that  plain pvp.

Freedom in a game would be great, but absolute freedom like SB sounds and like UO was unfortunately turns into the lowest common denominator pvp.

I still believe that for accountability..a game like DF should only allow 1 character on a server..or at least make all your toons share a surname so that you can't just tick people off all day, then log a different toon and be all friendly. 

Let you live or die from your reputation.

[quote]...in all honesty, todays mmo's bore me.[/quote]

Virtual reality. Technology is advancing at a pace where it is not so far off. This is the next frontier in the development of MMORPGs.

The question is how realistic is too realistic. What sensations carry from the game into the real world? What happens when you are obliterated in the game - feel the pain like it really happened?

What company is going to have the first fully immersive virtual gaming environment on the market? Microsoft intentionally gave us the RROD with the 360. The implications in fully immersive virtual gaming would be...hmmm...serious.

Now you're touching upon a classical theme in the developers corner on the gaming fora. MMO's are in their infancy and todays framework for MMO production, pretty much forces the designers to create mechanisms that are substitutes for content.

There are many people that are capable of arresting the flawed logics of todays MMO's and dream up solutions. The problem is that it can't be done.

In my opinion, VR in a MMO context isn't first and foremost a question of a suit that gives you a shock when someone smacks you. VR is mainly a setting that is so rich in genuine content, so vast in size, so truly dynamical and so complicated in code that I will be posetively surprised to see a good product in my lifetime.

But then again, I'm rather old so.. grumble..   8-)