We use the word "grind" to describe anything that an mmo forces us to do (that we do not want to do) over a long period of time. Personally, PvE aspects of most mmo's do nothing for me. I prefer player vs player interaction over all else. Obviously this makes PvE a grind for me. I simply do not enjoy the simplicity of PvE that plagues mmo's today.
I am going to stretch way back when, to when I used to play a MUD (multi user dungeon) by the name of Nirvana. For those that do not know, a mud is a text based mmorpg. Just like today, I tried to level fast. Leveling wasnt quite so boring back then due to me trying to kill the hardest mobs possible so I would level fast. In todays games, you are usually not rewarded for killing more difficult opponents. WoW as an example, yes you are rewarded by killing elites, but if you are going to stick with non-elite mobs, killing a mob your level is more rewarding than fighting something 5 levels above you due to the speed at which you kill the even level mob. Personally, I believe with greater risk should come greater reward. I actually enjoyed the greater risk. Occasionally Id die, instead of like in WoW, where you are pretty much safe.
Back in those days on the mud, I would wait for hours just to ambush a player. In those days, PvP was frowned upon for the most part. I actually enjoyed the infamy. There is nothing like a small community of players, where your actions actually make a difference. Where people actually know your name. You can become feared or cheered. This is an aspect missing in todays MMORPG world. Archlord attempted at elevating a player in the eyes of his peers. Im off topic a bit. Although you could look at these factors as alleviating the grind...
Today in MMORPGs, we see the trend of monotonous monster killing for the sake of it being a time sink. Some people actually enjoy killing monsters endlessly to level (i assume). So I am fine with that option being there. I would prefer PvE to be spiced up a lot. Tabula Rasa made a valiant effort to spice up PvE combat. It feels as if mobs could be dropped on you at any time. I like this. I still find it a bit bland, but I believe its on the right track. Defending outposts from assault by npc/pc alike would add more flavor. If the sides are unbalanced then throw in more mob support. If its a fun experience, players will be less likely to be upset if they lose and more inclined to get right back in there and attempt to retake that outpost. Of course I threw PvP in there, because thats what I am looking for in a game. You could simply have NPC controlled outposts and NPC armies swarming in to take said outpost.
Time shouldnt be seen as a punishment. You should enjoy every moment of playing your character. Every little thing you accomplish should help to define your character. There should be plenty of options for methods of advancement that you do not feel forced into one specific method.
- Crafting --
I believe equipment should matter, but not be above player skill. With that said I see most crafting systems as a useless grind. Every so often you get to craft an item or two thats actually useful. WoW is a good example of a horrible crafting system. Crafting should not be a monotonous time sink. Possibly a mini-game could be developed to entertain crafters. Craftable items should be useful in some way.
- Leveling --
There should be a complex leveling system. More difficult encounters should give more reward. The more risks you take the more you should gain. Leveling should also be possible through PvP. PvP/PvE questing should exist. Accomplishing a goal, then being rewarded should exist. What I mean by this is that if you kill some special mob or do some special action out in the field, you should be able to get some reward for it. I guess you could call it a reverse quest, accomplishing the goal before you are given the quest. Ultimately leveling shouldn't even be noticed until you level. Imagine leveling up and going "hey, i just leveled", instead of constantly watching your EXP bar and dreading the hours its going to take...
- Group Friendly PvE/PvP
A group should speed up the grind. I am tired of games that reduce exp gain due to you being in a group. If 2 players whack on a mob til it dies, they should get near or possibly the full exp due them. If multiple players kill a mob, and those players are not in a group, they should get near or possibly full exp for it. This would help to alleviate kill stealing. Also this helps in situations like in WoW, in duskwood when that big abomination attacks the town, all players involved should get exp for the encounter and not just the first player to attack it or the player that does the most damage.
-Summary
MMORPG's focus on leveling because thats how they keep players. Most games have very underdeveloped end game goals/options, so much so that they usually spew forth endless expansion packs that extend the level maximum. In the end all they do is succeed at delaying the inevitability of having to create options for players at end game. When the grind has to come to an end, a successful game should have plenty of options remaining at end game.
The ideal MMORPG is enjoyable from level 1 to max level. The ideal MMORPG should be fun even if you skipped to max level. IThe ideal MMORPG has no grind due to the player enjoying nearly every step of the game.
( This posting is inspired by JB47394's posting. I do agree with a lot of the things he has to say)
please delete my last comment, that wasnt really what i was trying to say
Wed Dec 19 2007 8:29AMWhile i agree that in "some" there is too much grinding, a game that has 1+ year's worth of content will have some griding no matter what. An MMO will have some grinding no matter what. The fact is that some people view grinds as different things because all a grind is is something that you dont like doing as much. In an MMO there are too many things to do for all of those things to be something that entertains you for that full year. Instancing is definetly the most fun the first time you do it, but imo its still fairly fun the tenth time i do it, where PvP the tenth time i do it i want to kill myself. To take away instancing because you think its a grind would piss me off, but to take away PvP because i think its a grind would piss you off, so they continue to stay there.
Grinding for the sake of grinding pisses me off. I refuse to play a game where the only thing to do is kill shit until you can kill the stuff past the stuff you were just killing, just because it gives more xp. Thats not fun, but when there are just aspects of a game that are a grind, you cant really criticize it because its impossible to avoid
Wed Dec 19 2007 8:35AMHmm, There are few games where you can earn xp by killing other players. That is indeed a point which most MMORPG's lack. However, I disagree with the group experience system. The experience share is used for several reason. The first being longevity. If it didn't exist, you would hit maximum level much faster because you work in group (faster kills because more players participate). Which means less challenge and less satisfaction. There are several other reasons but I disgress. I would call 'Group Friendlyness' the kind of challenges, where it is imposible to progress solo.
Crafting is a mather of patience and will. There is no reason you have to participate. It is purely optional. It's an enrichement of the game. If you don't like crafting, get someone else to do it for you. Some people actually like to craft.
I feel that equipment should never be "Uber". By that I mean, every armor or weapon type should have it's strengths and weaknesses. Having the right equipment should be more important than the cost or rareness of the item. Picking the right items is a matter of skill as well.
On leveling I have a personal view. Levels should be Skill levels and not general levels. You attack with a sword -> sword xp for each point of damage. You craft -> crafting xp for that class of items. etc.
Another option is the system employed in guild wars. No fixed stats. In town you can freely redistribute the number of owned skill points across your stats. This increases your options and makes strategy even more important. Especially when there is a skill point cap which makes it impossible to max everything.
The end-game in many games is underdeveloped. I agree partially. MMORPGs are never finished. New content is, in the better mmo's, released constantly. Furthermore, there is no indication where the end game is. There are almost always options left. You just have to find them. Arena's, clan wars and tournaments do wonders too. Of course, the Korean 3 new MMO's a week type is grinding only. But that's a matter of taste. 'Killing just to kill and show of with your level'-games have their own type of players. If you don't like it, switch to another game.
Grinds are personal. Some people even consider PVP a grind. There is no way to avoid it. If you are looking for PVP-only, forget about MMO's. Go play quake wars. Unreal tournament. Anything that offers instant gratification. If you don't like PVP, then get Sim-city. MMO's are everything. The whole pack. PVP, PVE, quests, crafting, merchanting, comunity, All of it. If you took any part away, the balanced would be destroyed.
NPC's are a strange case. It takes lots of time and money to improve them and to keep creating challenges. Surprise ambushes and base attacks are not easy to make, hard to control and rarely apreciated by most players. Many people feel contests for 'control points' should be pvp-only. Especially when they lose their castle/outpost while their opponents managed to fight the mobs off. Hundreds of kids will cry out cheating and unfairness (just flip them off, I say. But that's personal). If you where a game developer, wouldn't you like to avoid that? And keep receiving their money every month?
Wed Dec 19 2007 4:49PMI think the best way to avoid a grind is to offer multiple methods of achieving the same goal, with each method covering a typical base (pve, pvp, non-combat, etc.). For instance, your character needs materials to create an object (a weapon, armor, or some sort of device, etc.), here are some options:
1. Attack opposing players supply lines and scavenge the materials from destroyed wagons that run along a road with guards(PvE) and players (PvP) protecting it.
2. Protect a town from monster attacks (PvE) while the NPC mobs mine from a nearby ore supply. The more mobs that get by the less material is made available.
3. Do a quest and be rewarded with the materials you need (PvE).
4. Fight in an arena environment against players and choose the materials as a reward (PvP).
5. Pick up the mining skill and go and get it yourself. But since when does an armorer go out and mine the material him/herself?
6. Go to the auction house and buy it, or trade with another player.
With enough options, for any one goal, you remove a little bit of the grind because you might get to do what you ENJOY. And if you lose interest in what you commonly enjoy, then try something else to achieve the same goal.
The same goes for leveling up or raising skills. What if you enjoy helping lowbies, but there is, like always, so little gain in it? Well, being a 'big brother/sister' to a lowbie could give the same gain in exp as going out in a party -- sometimes teaching is the best way to learn. Or, raise it through PvP arena matches, or PvE raids and quests. Or PvEvP. The more paths the better.
So, no, grinds are not necessary. Especially when you take the definition of a grind as detailed by Tonyd in his original blog post. It doesn't have to be something you don't want to do, it can be something you very much want to do, and then it isn't a problem if it takes a while. And who cares if it doesn't take a while? What if it happens quickly? It won't matter as long as you have:
REAL Endgame content. Adding more dungeons and areas isn't the answer. Neither is more levels, skills, classes, races, etc. etc etc. The answer is to create more social options that get players involved with each other. Elaborate politics, religions, and other changing and shifting systems could be the answer. These are not fixed goals that a player will reach for and attain and then pin permanently on their shirt like a level or skill or a weapon held in their hand. Instead, these are things that can be given, taken, lost, developed, and passed on. Shifting territories, land, laws, godly influences, the fluctuation of a states coin, the positions held, the people you command or take orders from, etc etc. And if the scale is large enough then the majority can be involved in numerous ways, leaving very few out (those who want no part of it). And yeah, this would be a lot of work, but it's the kind of endgame people actually need. Not just a race through the next 10 levels that a game has expanded to, and not just picking up the next set of equipment that was thrown in.
My two bits,
LC
Wed Dec 19 2007 9:28PMMMORPG.com writes:
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