Lets start off by defining succeed. I believe that to succeed, you need to break the niche market population threshold. I would guesstimate that threshold being around 250,000 subscribers.
The Advancement Method
I am not trying to promote a level or skill based system. I believe that either system is viable. Lets start with ability gain. I am tired of the standard, you level, you get this ability, routine. What I would prefer is you level, choose which ability or skill that you want from this list. This way, the player has the final say in what his play style will be even at low levels of play. I am tired of companies forcing a play style on you, then allowing you a choice when you max level.
I would start by giving the player a large amount of hit points. As you level, you gain hitpoints in small increments and by allocating points to it. This way, how much hit points a player has is his/her choice and not determined by the game and gear that you wear. Every level the player should get a quantity of stat and a quantity of skill points to spend as they see fit. They could spend these skill points to attain new skills or to make existing skill more powerful. This will allow to a player to build a character depending on their own playstyle.
Killing Players and Mobs
Advancing through experience gain should not be a ponderously slow event. Killing mobs and players should both be rewarding. The idea is mix player and mob killing to the point that they are viewed the same. I believe a mob should not be a simple, i kill it, im at full health still, kind of ordeal. Every mob should have its own abilities that make it a worth while opponent. When fighting a mob, you should think, is this a mob or is this a player?
Yes, you will get ganked. You will be attacking a mob and a player will come out of nowhere and gank you. This is an open world PvP game. Thats life. The fight should be interesting if you built your character to deal with situations like this. Fighting an even level opponent and an even level mob should end up in a loss for you, that is, unless you created your character in a way to deal with these situations. If you built your character to be the uber healer with no escape measures, well, thats your choice, deal with it. If you build a character to work effectively in a group, than group.
PvP based Objectives
I do not believe a good PvP based game can survive with out good PvE content. I am not saying that there should be 40 man raids. Mobs must interact and behave like that of a player. I believe that at the beginning of a good open RvR world that the player factions should start small. I believe that NPC factions should hold all the PvP goals until taken by a player faction. After taken by the players, then it is up to them to defend that goal. Mobs may be implemented to help guard a goal. Guard mobs should not respawn every 5 secs like in WAR. If the players dont actively defend a goal, they lose the goal. The guild that takes a node would determine how guards are placed to defend that node and they would be subject to the benefits and negatives given for keeping or losing this node.
Defining a Characters Potential
As your character progresses through the game, your defining characteristics should not be, your level and your gear. Your defining characteristics should be from the choices that you made when developing your character. Maybe you spent heavy on a hit point based build. Maybe you focused on stats that increase your offensive or healing abilities. Options should be there and they should determine your characters focus. If you want to make a nuke/healer hybrid, by all means, go for it. The point is, the game should not define your character. The point of an mmorpg, is to create a character that you wish to roleplay.
Equipment
Equipment should not play a major role in the sense that it does today. Yes, chainmail should be a more effective defense than a robe. Yes this should be a defining choice in how your character plays. No, 50% of your hit points should not come from the items you wear/wield. I can understand incremental gains from equipment, when it relates to statistics. I want options. Games such as WoW use equipment as the focus for play. I believe that in a good open world PvP game, open world PvP should be the focus. Gear should play a part, but not as a primary role.
I also believe in a well balanced crafting system. I believe that the best gear should come from player crafters. This also allows for mining nodes to be placed and fought for in open world PvP. These nodes wouldnt be only for crafting gear, but also seige equipment.
Alls I say is make the game and find out. I honestly believe that no amount of thinking, planning or research can ever define a good game cause people are fickle.
Sat Nov 29 2008 7:09PMYeah, I mean i agree with most of what you're saying. But, I think most mmorpgs give your character choices, they are just limited. PvP open worlds are hard to sell, that's the bottom line.
Sat Nov 29 2008 7:23PMOne huge problem is dumbing down. Developers don't want somebody kicking the tail of somebody else without them having a chance to kick your tail no matter what the class, race is.. I've came to the conclusion that leveling is just a waste of time or time sink to get to an end game ojective. Why should a paying customer have to grind to a position that will be just average when you get there anyways?
There used to be great games open world PVP games produced but not since WOW came out. I wish EA would buy Blizzard hehe.
Sat Nov 29 2008 7:53PMI would prefer if they made an open world version of Fury, I enjoyed that game but it was too ... small, basically turn that from a 3rd person shooter with swords into an MMO. Basically add a world and give it little features like crafting, exploring and such.
Sat Nov 29 2008 9:19PMi disagree with your defination of success it would be better to say success was turning a profit there fore it is entierly possible to put games with large subscriber bases in the unsuccessful bucket but also allowes us to put smaller games in the successfull bucket because 250k subscribers then you are getting into the region of games who dont give a shit about their subscribers
additionally yu are considering an advancement system that takes skills and stats too much into account a toon should be able to do anything nomatter the skills and stats those just show how good the toon is at it
also you even considered mobs to level or skill up on just get rid of skills or levels that matter and then you dont need EXP rewards for killing shit just the gear and items they have, full loot PVP anyone? gear loss on death would be great especially if its coming from crafters and helps to drain cash from the economy
infact have no NPC shops just put in 10k or so for each player mobs only drop a little bit along with their gear and have them fight it out for the cash make the money mean something plus you will combat gold farmers with the same system
Sun Nov 30 2008 3:04AMNice follow-up to your previous post.
Does this game in your head have a level cap? If gear comes from crafters, and you have a level cap, I guess gear would be represented by levels and you would get equal number of stats you would if you were able to carry on leveling.
What stops a newly leveled character from just getting the newest equipment on the market?
I have always been in favour of crafting as a real profession another way to level. You mention that crafting should play an important part in equipment
Sun Nov 30 2008 12:56PMI am interested to hear more about how you see crafting in an Open PvP game, how will resource be collected, how about special resources?
The Advancement Method
There will never be agreement on which is better, skill based or class based. The main problem I see with class based is you pigeonhole people into being a certain character type. Sure this does breed unity as classes rely on other classes, IE tanks needing healers. But it does take away the freedom to be what you want, be a tank with healing or a caster with melee skills. It can work, it has worked in the past. Where it goes awry is when they put in way to many spells and abilities and put in epic types of weapons/armor. I myself prefer skill based, but have enjoyed class based as well. SWG in the beginning I thought did a fine job with class based, allowing you to go up in multiple tree's. I agree with the hit points to an extent. You should be able to use XP or points or whatever to raise your innate abilities, like XP, Mana, Stam, Run Speed, Jump, Strength and so on.
Killing Players and Mobs
I disagree completely with XP gain, I think level gain should be very, VERY slow. Everyone is so intent on reaching max level that they miss the purpose of the game. To enjoy and have fun. Sure getting to max level is great and rewarding but it usually gets to a point where hitting max becomes the only goal. In games today I don't stand in awe when I see someone 10-20 levels above me, as I know I can get that in a day or so, back in AC it could literally take weeks or months to gain(early AC) that much. So many complain about ganking, griefing, zerging! Those are core principles of a Pvp game, you can honestly say that if the game was real life you would run around alone hoping to fight someone 1 on 1 to the death? You will run around with a group of friends and pick off the weak and look for epic battles. You will gank and you will be ganked, this goes to the age old PvP saying, "Some days you're the dog and others you're the hydrant."
PvP Based Objectives
I have played open ended content and closed content, IE no world objectives and world objectives. Both can work. The problem with PvP objectives is they are usually in faction based games, I think faction based games are the bane of PvP. Imagine WAR where all the keeps and BO's are strictly controlled by guilds or clans, you will fight to keep them if they give your guild bonuses etc. Sure in WAR guilds can claim keeps but they are usually empty fights. In AC monarchy's claimed towns and dungeons simply by putting their members there and saying its ours keep out. It wasn't a design of the game it was player implemented, if you wanted to shop that town or fight that dungeon you were either a member of the monarchy or an ally. In WAR you fight some NPC's the keep is order/destro and the opposing will come usually when no one is around and kill the NPC's and retake, sure there are times when the fights are good but usually its attacking an empty keep and no one wants to come defend.
Defining and Equipment
Armor and weapons should not decide who is better. Armor and weapons should at a little defense and attack power and nothing more. Now it is I have to go get X armor set or Y weapon in order to own ass. Your equipment should be secondary, your skill should be primary. Games today a fight usually lasts at most 1 minute, usually a mere 15-20 seconds. But one thing is constant, the longer the fight lasts the better you feel when you win. In AC we would ID the body and take screenshots as trophies. It would say player name killed by player name, it was nothing fancy but after fighting someone for over 5 minutes it was like winning an oscar or emmy. I am not a big fan of crafting, I think it detracts from the game. Maybe cooking alchemy type so you can get mild buffs but in games now you can create god like weapons and potions of infinite ownage. It becomes a matter of the better player is the one that is higher level, has better equipment or better buffs, skill is way down on the list. Maybe today's gamers enjoy the 20 second battles, maybe I am just a relic of the past, but to me epic fights that could last over 10 minutes even when losing were what PvP was all about.
Ok another TL;DR, but T your posts are generally well thought out and interesting and get me thinking. It would be a slap in the face to you to just post 1 line responses. I usually agree overall with what you have to say, while I may not agree with everything I see your points and they are valid. At least all of us true hardcore PvPers can agree that there needs to be a better PvP game.
Sun Nov 30 2008 6:02PMI agree complety with what splixx says
Long PvP battles! its awesome and you feel like a hero and stuff when you win a long fight.. its rare these days.
Sun Nov 30 2008 8:00PM@T0nyd
Im glad to see you remade your blog, the last one you made people got waaaay to defensive. Even though I am more PvE heavy, I still like to read your comments.
I also agree with Splixx
One of the reasons I stopped playing WoW was because it feels more like a fragfest now, rather than tactical skill based gameplay.
Sun Nov 30 2008 8:50PMThanks for the comments guys. I simply post my opinion and things and I love to hear others ideas in regards to mine ;)
@ soltanis
I believe that levels should eventually end. Be it 20 or 60 levels, as long as end game is fun and there are several other methods of marking achievements, then I dont believe that you need the endless leveling scheme that WoW seems to want to employ.
As far as crafting, I believe most games use it wrong. Most crafting systems do not support an end game theme. I believe that there should be no bind on pick up crafting gear. If you can make it, you can sell it, and people can use it. Also each crafting proficiency should have a multi purpose set up. Example, end game PvP mmorpg, crafters that craft gear should also be able to craft items used for siege warfare. Crafters should also help raise the level of a node or city that you occupy. They should be able to help build fortifications and help build city structures themselves.
As for resource collecting, maybe having an rts mode to the game. The guild that occupies a node can set up npcs to harvest and mine. A strategic method of attacking a city would be to kill all npc harvesters. To cut that city off from supplies. Also, the crafter themself should be able to harvest if they so choose OR any player. Hell, wtf cant chop trees down. It could be used as a source of income...
Sun Nov 30 2008 10:48PMFor gear and lowbies wearing upper level gear, a soft cap could be set. Lets say we set a sword as a level 10 sword and a level 1 wields it. This wielder would get 10% of what ever bonuses are on that sword. You can wield and wear anything, you just might not get 100% of the effects of that weapon til you reach a certain level.
I do not like the idea of huge modifiers on gear. If you find a helm with +5 magic resist. This helm should be valued. I dont believe that gear should have +40 sta(400hps), +25 int, +50 resist fire, etc... I am fine with gear being a minor form of character advancement, but once you get into huge statistic changes, it takes over the game.
Sun Nov 30 2008 10:53PMHmm...also for a open world PvP setting to succeed I believe you need to have a strong award system set up. Simply put, you need to give incentive for people to world PvP. Warhammer has already tried to implement this system by giving rewards to the people that helped the most in a PvP battle or PvP related missions...but from what I hear the system is flawed. WoW has just started implementing this idea with their new zone Wintergrasp. i havent played it or heard anything about it so I dont know how well thats going for Blizzard.
But as with everything, you run into the problems of: How big should the rewards be? Who gets them and what determines that? Should their be smaller rewards for the losing team just for participating in the "event" so one side wont get super powerful while the other is left behind in the dust?
Mon Dec 01 2008 2:37AM@ caemsg
ok, I'll start at the begining. What you are describing is more of a utopian mmorpg...but thats never going to happen. What I mean by utopian is that, everyone will follow the rules and play fairly. The problem with someone being able to do everything just because they can is...dumb. I will explain, lets take a warrior class, rogue class, and a healing class. What you get is a big burly warrior with a giant 2hnd Axe and plate mail sneaking around in the shadows stabing people in the back with his amazingly huge axe and also healing all of his allies. The reason why you cant have one person be and do everything is because it can be glitched and it wouldnt encourage players working together. If you can run a dungeon and be the tank, dps, and the healer...why would you bring anyone else?
I'll move onto your second point, looting a dead person in PvP and removing all of his gear. Again, this will just frustrate people that have worked hard to earn their gear. Think about it, you are walking along, you see an enemy, you begin battle. Oh noes! My internet went out, to bad because my charatcer is still in game getting pwned. I log back in and im dead, with all of my gear gone.
Thirdly, no NPC shops...this isnt a bad idea on paper, but when you try to execute it, it falls apart. Im going to relat this to WoW, I log on and after awhile, my armor gets damaged and I cant continue what I was doing. I go to the city and spend 30min in trade chat trying to get ahold of some dumb blacksmith to repair my armor. And then since hes the only blacksmith online at the moment, he wants to repair my armor for 200g....
The last bit of what you said I couldnt really understand, maybe you could rephrase it.
Mon Dec 01 2008 3:02AM7anman- I disagree with PvP rewards, I think they are a bad idea. The reason is because it becomes more about getting the reward and less about the thrill of the fight, winning should be its own reward. We fought for bragging rights back in the day, not for some loot bag. Our only rewards were the screenshots of the body of our foe with the body Identified so the screen would show who it was and who killed him. For a PvP game emerging victorious should be the only reward needed.
7anman-I moderately agreed with your reply to Caemsg, however I think you looked at an extreme of multi-classing or hybrids that can do everything. SWG was a prime example of multi-classing at its best. You could go up multiple trees in multiple professions. Although just because you could go up in various trees did not mean that you were some kind of god. Even in AC you could do exactly what you talked about, tank and heal(no stealth class), although you could add in some war magic if you wanted. Just because you could do all three did not mean you were invincible, your skills all suffered because you had to spend points to advance the skills. So while you could theoretically tank you would never be as good as a tank, and while you could WAR magic you would never be as good as a WAR mage. In AC it mattered what your melee skill was when stacked up against an opponent's melee defense, same for magic and magic defense. So hybrids miss more often and just didn't hit very hard, for magic you might find you fizzle more and people resist you more often.
Game makers need to learn moderation, seems every game company wants everyone to have 100 choices for attacks and abilities. In AC you had 1 melee attack and a variety of spell attacks based strictly on the type of damage you do(Fire, Ice, Pierce, Bludge etc). You started with say firebolt 1 and could learn up to 7(when I quit, believe it is up to level 8 now), the higher you got your WAR magic the sooner you could learn the next level of spell. Even in SWG you got your new attacks based on how far you went up the line(Early SWG, not the crap game it is now). I know it looks great when you see that Crit for 2000 but is it really needed, just another thing added to make the fights last 15 seconds or so. I have never been satisfied with a PvP kill like I was back in AC, just cause a fight could last a few minutes and longer.
On your point about looting your kills, once again you just have to look back to AC and Darktide server. Sure it sucked when you died and lost some of your stuff, but it was also great when you killed and got some stuff. You carried DI(death items, high value junk that you hope will drop first) and fought your best. Naturally this type of system will not work for everyone, only the true Hard-core will want this in place, but you can limit its impact by saying no armor or weapons will drop or you can allow people to bind a certain amount items/weapon/armor to themselves. For a PvP centric game you make one Darktide type of server where it is literally everything goes, short of cheats and exploits of course, and the rest you make a varying degree of hardcore. An example would be taking WAR and making your ORvR like Darktide and the rest like they are now, where you get generated loot for kills. I see a lot of people that worry about losing connection or lag or something else that would cause them to lose, sure it sucks but just a hazard you have to face when playing a game online. You gotta remember that I and the other die-hard Darktiders played on Dial-up, talk about losing connection and lag.
As always no company will probably satisify both PvE and PvP gamers, there are just too many factors involved, from PvE'ers that want some PvP to PvP'ers that want some PvE. I think taking a PvE game and allowing optional PvP is a good way to go, sorta like the Carebear servers in AC. While taking your one PvP server and making it hardcore to the death like Darktide was.
Yeah I make long posts, and some of them are even coherent and intelligent, will let you decide which ones are which type. As always just my thoughts and opinions, always welcome feedback and flames.
Mon Dec 01 2008 1:52PMMMORPG.com writes:
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