Lets just start by saying that I love the idea of PvP interaction. Killing mobs over and over doesnt do much for me. Doing lame quests like "please go get me 5 boar livers" just doesnt appeal to me in any sense of the word. I think I will start by defining what I think a PvP MMORPG should entail...
1. PvP from start to finish.
Why in the majority of so called PvP games, does the PvP only start end game. I believe from level 1 to end game, PvP should be a viable options. If an mmo is going to have PvP in it, then design the system from the ground up to support it. DO NOT throw PvP in at the end and go there, its broke, but there...
2. Advancing your character through PvP.
I want a wide range to the advancement system in a game. I enjoy the challenge of defeating a live opponent in combat. The problem is, with most games you either dont gain xp or equipment or either. Whats the point of forcing players to spend hours grinding for game currency and killing mobs just to spend minutes PvPing. Im talking about all forms of PvP also. Simply adding battlegrounds to a game doesnt make it a PvP game. The idea of an mmo is to be a big sandbox to play in. So dont little PvP to tiny areas in the big sandbox. DO NOT force players to spend massive amounts of time doing what they dont want to do, just to do what they want to do.
3. Dynamic Environment.
PvP can and should be supported by PvE. What I mean is in every battle there should be the potential for mobs to assist. In a war type scenario there should be mobs attacking and defending key locations. The game should feel as if a war is raging. I would even go so far as to say "hell, i just killed a player and didnt even realize it". If a noob player has mob support he is going to feel better about engaging others in PvP. If the noob player has a defensive structure to retreat to or defend from, he is going to feel better about PvP. If its always you alone getting whacked by a group of "insert curse word here", your probably going to quit. DO NOT restrict PvP to linear situations.
4. Stealth.
Personally i believe the most valuable tool a player can have is stealth. As a stealther, you control when and where the fight takes place. A stealth class is the most critical class to balance. An overpowered stealth class will ruin any chance of a stable PvP environment. Personally, i enjoy playing stealth classes. I love the idea of scouting and ambushing. I just do not like the idea of easy mode PvP where the stealth class can engage at will and escape at will. DO NOT allow any class to engage or escape at will.
Hopefully a game will come along that will break the mold, cause im really bored :)
Sounds a lot like DAOC besides it would be fresh and would hopefully fix some imbalancing issues that plagued DAOC, also i like the idea of being able to lvl up in PvP. DAOC had a similar aspect but you didnt get equipment and it really wasn't a full on open sandbox type of way to lvl up. All in all i would for sure play a game that would be like this.
Fri Nov 30 2007 2:05AMRegarding 1 and 2 - thats exactly what Warhammer is going to do. I have no idea how dynamic - your definition - it will be in mixing things or how stealth comes into it.
Fri Nov 30 2007 5:53AMYes and ill say it again. If I dont want your PvP or your harassment I should retain the right of telling you no to your PvP.
Fri Nov 30 2007 7:36AMawsome, except for the spies. i personaly think that sould be a little overpowered. just kill there stats so everyone else has a neutral chance to counter if there paying attention. a spy or rouge should'nt win in a one on one fight with a tank class unless hes unbelievably skilled or ridiculously out twinked.
Fri Nov 30 2007 9:19AMSounds a lot like the Mythic-style PvP. From what i've read (i've not played in the WAR beta) they are using some of what you mentioned above.
1) WAR has it. They have some safe zones, but not too many. Lots of PvP encouraged through questing and objective world-based pvp.
2) In WARhammer players drop mob-level-equivalent loot (NOT from player inventory) and award level appropriate XP as a mob would.
3) The scenarios in WAR are supposedly going to be balanced by adding in NPC "Dogs of war" to even out power levels and numbers for the RvR. Also you will be able to destroy many structures during RvR and siege style play.
4) I'm not sure about the stealth in WARhammer.
5) New point here, but warhammer also has in place a mechanic to curb "ganking". High lvl players that enter low level zones will be turned into a giant CHICKEN (as a funny reference to the type of coward player that ganks) that will have almost no dmg potential (pecking). I think anti-ganking measures are also a MUST for a big PvP game. It's fun to battle other humans, it sucks to get griefed by jerkfaces.
Fri Nov 30 2007 9:45AMI agree with Ben1778.
1&2) WAR has it. XP, loot, and total Rank 1-40 advancement through PvP if you want to.
3) Every PvE quest, kill, etc. and everything you do in PvP effects the RvR war for control of that zone. So even if you are only PvEing, you are still helping the RvR war effort. Throw in city capture, ransacking, etc. and it's already much more dynamic then nearly every other MMORPG
4) No stealth in WAR. Mythic has already come out and said that they are NOT having anything like the kind of stealth we see in WoW. It's unrealistic, too hard to balance, and only any fun for the stealthers (ever wonder why there are so many Rogues in WoW??)
Throw in the recently announced Keep control and renewed focus on open world RvR instead of instances, and WAR promises to be one hell of a PvP game
Fri Nov 30 2007 10:52AMEverything sounds just like WAR, perfect.
Except stealth. No. Stealth breaks PvP. It's a horrible mechanic to introduce to an MMO.
In PvP, it only promotes ganking and basically making the player that is attacked feel cheated
In PvE, it just slows down leveling.
Fri Nov 30 2007 12:33PMI do not like the lack of a stealth class for War. There are infinite ways to do a stealth class. Just because WoW can not balance rogues doesnt mean no other MMO shouldnt have them. The idea of stealth is a powerful tool, you just can do what blizzard did and give them every ability in the game plus super high dps. A rogue should exist to scout and try to sneak into the back line of a fight and drop a caster, not to stealth around and gank anyone he sees because he has the tools to beat anyone he sees.
As for Raven99, dude its a PvP game. If you want PvE go play pretty much every other mmo ever made. Atleast allow us to have one game that is for PvPers. Every game shouldnt have to include the carebear crowd just like every game does not include the PvP crowd.
Fri Nov 30 2007 12:59PMAgree on all points except Stealth that has no place in a dice roll type MMORPG but rather should be included in an MMOFPS whereas I can 'aim' and shoot a stealthed enemy. That way any player can effectively combat a stealthed enemy.
much easier to just not include them though. I think only eve online handled stealth Classes right (while stealthed you cant attack)
Fri Nov 30 2007 1:09PMyour ideas are too biased. You did not have and structural facts, all you did was told us what you felt from the many games you played t0nyd.
Fri Nov 30 2007 2:44PMWAR will never be a good PvP Game. A good PvP game requires that the players have direct control over their world, the ability to enforce eachother, and the necessity to band together to acheive goals.
Gameplay mechanics asside, WAR and other mainstream MMO's remove 90% of the fun through hand holding.
Fri Nov 30 2007 3:43PMVajuras --
I have played rpgs for years. Pretty much every pen and paper rpg i have played has stealth classes. Just because no game has done them right, it doesnt mean it cant be done right. I have no idea why you believe stealth should be FPS only. How can you 'aim' and shoot something you cant see? You have me a bit lost there.
Dracys --
My ideas are too biased? Uhh, they are my ideas so obviously they are biased. Structural facts on what? These are ideas....
Stormsblade --
WAR and Conan both have potential. Altho i do agree that the current gen of mmo's do ruin the fun do to hand holding. Its a carebear world man. Most players like Raven99 believe every game should be about them and no other game should exist.
Fri Nov 30 2007 4:05PMIn FPS Stealth Classes work way better because if you suspect someone is creepin' close to you- just start shooting.
In MMORPG, you can be fighting a guy and they just disappear/vanish. If you lack an Area of Effect they're gone. Next, you always need a certain Class type to counter them
Stealth should really take skill to play like we saw in Tenchu and Splinter Cell series whereas I have to evade detection. It shouldnt be the simple, easymode Classes we see now (this is coming from someone that plays Stealth types)
Anyway Stealth done right is in FPS games like BF2142, unreal tournament, etc whereas the scout is slightly transparent and any Class has equal opprotunity to fight them
Another Stealth Class done right was Cloaked ships in EVE whereas you cannot attack while stealthed
You have basically made my point for me. A stealth class can work. The problem is with the current games they dont due to balancing issues. IMO it is completely retarded for someone to be able to stealth while people are staring at him. I prefer the, im stealthed, i attack, oh crap its going wrong, run away, sort of stealther. Not the WoW versions, oh crap, click vanish. WoW seems to ruin a lot of concepts. Some basic concepts could fix stealth in most games.
I would love to see real stealth tactics like in splinter cell. If you forced a first person perspective and made realistic environments then people could simply hide. With an overhead view in 3rd person, there is no way to hide...
Fri Nov 30 2007 8:05PMHow do you sneak up behind someone if you can't stealth within a certain radius?
I was thinking that you could justify being invisible as stealth, so long as there is cover, or if you're out of their line of sight. Cover and distance adding to the target amount for a perception roll. EG: Someone could seem invisible if they were 100 meters off and behind a bush, 10 meters off and behind some dense plants, or if they were directly behind you, and whatnot, but there would be percent chances of noticing them being rolled all the time to check if you saw them. This would make it so that you couldn't just walk up on an enemy, or even just be standing behind a bush that's directly in front of them, because eventually the perception checks would get you. It would be hard to code, and probably be rather taxing on a machine, but I can dream can't I?
Sat Dec 01 2007 4:52AMAfter spending quite a while in the warhammer beta, i would say: this could be something for you to wait for ....
Sat Dec 01 2007 11:01AMThis is directed to Raven's comments. The vast majority of games on the market cater to you and your wants in game play. If you dont like PvP you have a hell of lot of games to pick from. People who enjoy PvP have to suffer through game designs that cater to your "farming" oh look at the shiny new pretty I just found approach to good gaming. Unfortunatly we PvPers require you in game to be sheep we slaughter for our game enjoyment. Warhammer seems to be the game that has come up with a design to lure you into it so we can enjoy killing you. The old days of Shadowbane come to mind victims everywhere. The good old days "sighs"
Sat Dec 01 2007 4:14PMCathalaode -
" How do you sneak up behind someone if you can't stealth within a certain radius?"
Easily, by stealthing before you get into that radius. If you can't stealth with in 30 yards of an opponent, then stealth before you get with in 30 yards of that opponent. The idea is once your visible to that opponent, you shouldnt be able to "poof" vanish. So the idea is basically you cant restealth near someone.
If it was possible to hide using geography, that would be great. I want a game where the environment can be used to your advantage. The problem is that most MMORPG's make this impossible. Usually trees are too small and bushes can be seen through. Also there is that annoying neon sign above your head with your name on it.
Sat Dec 01 2007 5:55PMThis is directed to Raven's comments. The vast majority of games on the market cater to you and your wants in game play. If you dont like PvP you have a hell of lot of games to pick from. People who enjoy PvP have to suffer through game designs that cater to your "farming" oh look at the shiny new pretty I just found approach to good gaming. Unfortunatly we PvPers require you in game to be sheep we slaughter for our game enjoyment. Warhammer seems to be the game that has come up with a design to lure you into it so we can enjoy killing you.
Doesn't this strike you as the fatal flaw in your dream of a PvP Utopia? Unless you can lure fresh sheep into the game for your fiendish pleasures, you run out of people to kill. So it would have to be killing without consequence, otherwise if the sheep is penalized for dying constantly he will quickly give up trying and disappear. Leaving you with an empty game of nothing but uber PK'ers.
Perhaps you can explain how you plan to resolve this paradox, Spook.
Sat Dec 08 2007 4:33AMBoneserino-
I would be fine with a game of nothing but uber pkers. There would be a lot better competition in a game where everyone chose to PvP. As long as the game had a nice sized population, what would it matter?
Sun Dec 09 2007 4:52PMMMORPG.com writes:
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