Meandering through MMORPG's...

Author: t0nyd

Its not exactly FFA if there are safe zones forced on the players by the devs.

IN fact....the need for safe zones is a pretty heavy sign that FFA doesn't work at all.  If the designers have to FORCE the game to protect players from tools...then it would stand to reason that the system gives far too much power to the tools to begin with no?

If you remove the power from the tools...why...you remove game progression as well.  Can't do that...not really an RPG then.  More like Unreal than anything at that point.

Oh I know, you can impose a punishment on the killers!  No..no...then they either just do it anyway or you lose the heft of the hardcore players because PvP isn't rewarded, its punished.  Hell, at that point you may as well just remove FFA PvP and make it purely factional.  Because there isn't a point to normal PvP if its going to cost you for doing it.  All the while...you STILL have greifers who just won't care.

I'm really sorry for you PvP guys.  The handful of tools out there have ruined any chance you guys will ever have a good game to play.  I have some solutions to the problem...but they start taking away from the "FFA" of it all.  Which just serves to reason that FFA isn't a good ideal at all in a game where so much time is needed to progress.

"FFA" is a misnomer, Gish.  You're right that FFA generally doesn't work; but what most "FFA" players are really looking for is not really a no-rules scenario.  In fact, as I mentioned elsewhere, what most "FFA" players really look for (and build, even in totally FFA servers) is a guild vs guild setup - a scenario which is basically realm vs realm, but where players have the freedom to build their own 'realms' and declare war or make friends with whatever factions they want.

Protection of novices is crucial as well.  Games like Eve, while technically free for all, have levels of protections in place for novice players.  It's never TOTALLY safe in Eve, but in secure space it's pretty darn close.  Even Shadowbane had a newbie isle where players spent their first 20 or so levels while they learned the game, and neutral cities where no pvp is allowed.  These sorts of rule structures allow the game to grow and thrive, and are essential.  They don't damage the overall goal though, which is the freedom of players to generate story by creating their own high level faction interactions, instead of relying on prebuilt ones.

Gish there is already FFA pvp based games like EVE online that is doin well. Thank you for your knee jerk reaction tho

good blog, agree

Gish is simply doing what everyone else usually does, and thats take a defined term and add more to it. Free for all simply means anyone can fight anyone. Free for all does not mean, anyone can fight anyone at any given time. Free for all by definition does not bar safe zones.

free-for-all

  A disorderly fight, argument, or competition in which everyone present participates.

  This is the most simplistic definition available. There is no need to add to it. You say " the need for safe zones is a pretty heavy sign that FFA doesnt work at all". I saw that faction based games such as World of Warcraft have safe zones, does this means it isnt working?

FFA is just as good of an idea as any. A game is how you make it, FFA would be just one aspect of a game and it could be implemented in many, many ways...

Owyn - This ties back into Heerobyas blog though.  In the end, the real FFA players just want factional combat.  The difference being the ability to make your own faction.  Otherwise...fully agree with you.

Vajuras - EVE did not start out doing well at all.  It grew over the years.  Would you like to know why?  Its community developed into something great and they actually have Corps which are nothing more than training wheels for new players.  Couple that with high sec zones and its A LOT more forgiving than the"FFA" PvP some players are begging for.

The bottom line is always this: 

If you can't stop the griefers who run off new players...you have no game.  Full player looting has similar issues.  Even more so if the game ties progression to far into items.  In full loot games...items have to be nigh worthless.

I dont know Gish i suspect a lot of people here will disagree that EvE is too forgiving in the way you say. It is important that even the hardcore PvP games have safer zones or areas for the newbies to learn the basics and to find a Guild/Corp to join as there is such a thing as safety in numbers and this is especially true in EvE.

FFA servers are definitely welcome in any game.

As long as there is 1 PvE server with all loot enable in GROUPING (not raiding) in a PvE zone, I don't mind if there are PvP options or not at all...as I am really FREE to avoid it and have access to all the loot and the PvE zones nonetheless.

What happens on other servers, isn't my business really.  As long as 1 server is fully PvE-grouping focused and that we miss nothing at all, loot/power/level wise, I see no reason to complain.  Even if half the zones are still PvP, I miss nothing loot wise...and if I want to see these zones...well...I can PvP...or just stick to my PvE and be the best there. The choice is really mine.

-HYPERION-

I didn't mean to say EVE was forgiving, just that its more so than what people are asking for.  It didn't start that way either...its just that years of Corp growth and community choices have opened doors for newbs that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Many people clamoring for FFA games are seeking "Kill anywhere, anytime, anybody" coupled with full player looting.  Plainly put, that system isn't gonna cut it anymore. 

I've been a long time player of shadowbane since release, there hasn't been a game out that has kept my attention that long as shadowbane. I've tried everything out there, but I always come back to shadowbane just for the pvp and politics. The ideas presnted from the others are right on it, but yet one thing that bugs me from most of the FFA's are the numbers game or we should say is the zerg issue. For example you take 20 pvp er's who play as a team and take 20 carebears and put them on the field. Everyone knows the pvpers are going to win and the fight should end there. Yet the win factor come into play and those 20 carebears turn in 50+ just to beat 20 pvper's, Now is that fair? Now we all know the up coming games coming out will have that problem and I seen alot of good players leave games behind that issue. When a game adds the element of losing something in it makes it all the fun imo, but it should be on a balance  playing field.

So your solution to make FFA PvP more appealing to the non "hardcore" type, is to make PvP consensual and/or optional? Brilliant!

Who said make PvP consensual or optional? If I create a game and I make one server PvE, well, that shouldnt be much of a problem. If I make one server a hybrid where lets say your first 15 levels can be gained in safe zones, then you move on to the PvP areas, thats fine. If I open one server up to where all areas are PvP all the time, thats fine also. We could also t ake this game and have a server that has factions pre-defined for those that enjoy that type of play. Here we have a game with several different rule sets each defined at the server level. I seee no problem with this...

My biggest gripe with FFA PVP is that it turns into a whole community uniting against people who want to actually FFA and gank at will.  Vanguard was a FFA failure.

It's just boring when everytime you kill somebody you get flooded with OMG UR GILD IS KOS NOW!  Well, no crap sherlock.. Thank you very much.

"

Vajuras - EVE did not start out doing well at all.  It grew over the years.  Would you like to know why?  Its community developed into something great and they actually have Corps which are nothing more than training wheels for new players.  Couple that with high sec zones and its A LOT more forgiving than the"FFA" PvP some players are begging for."

I forgot to respond to this. I dont think you read this article at all btw. f you did, you'd realize your error here

"T" I am going to post again on one of your blogs, as I find your posts compelling, interesting and relevant. Skerge mentioned "The Zerg", me being old school DT I automatically assume that anyone that mentions zerg as a carebear, not that it's a derogatory thing. When I play a PvP game I fully expect to fight like my life depended on it. Whether I am getting ganked by 6 people or ganking someone else. Let me clue you all in on a fact of life in a FFA PvP world, "Some days you're the dog, and others you're the hydrant". In other words what goes around comes around, you might get ganked but find yourself ganking someone else. I hate to beat the AC issue to death but DT it actually mattered who you ran with. Hell it was a FFA PvP server and we had PK monarchy's fighting Anti-PK monarchy's. What's the difference between the two, PK's kill everyone that they are not allied with, while Anti's only attack PK's. This was not something designed into the game, it was just something that the players did. Just like monarchy's claimed towns and even dungeons as their own. Did they actually own them? Nope, but only their monarchy and allies could go there unmolested, same with dungeons, there were no instances, everyone went into the same dungeon. You put enough of your monarchy in there and you could keep everyone else out, once again not a design of the game. Was it fair? Yes and No. If you are one that complains about "zerging" or griefing then you most definitely do not belong on a FFA PvP server.
 

From the moment you logged into DT you could be killed by other people, whether they are level 1 or 100 it didn't matter. True PvP, True FFA. Going into DT you got the warning to be prepared for a very harsh existence, it definitely delivered on that. There should be no safe zones in a FFA server, it should be kill or be killed from day one. If you don't wanna fight from the get go then you shouldn't play on a PvP server its really that simple. Do like AC did, take your regular servers and give people the option to go RED, you can only fight against other RED'S. The people that are WHITE just plug along PvE the entire time. You take your PvP server and make it as harsh as possible. The hardcore's will stay and the others can go play RED on a regular server.