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The staff of MMORPG.com gets together to bring you some behind the scenes insights on stories, the industry and the site itself.

Author: staffblog

Contributors: BillMurphy,MikeB,garrett,SBFord,Grakulen,

Community Spotlight: Haters Gonna Hate?

Posted by MikeB Thursday July 29 2010 at 1:06PM
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This week’s Community Spotlight focuses on the thread “So why do many MMORPG gamers hate so many new MMORPG games?” by Qazz. Qazz appears frustrated by MMO gamers who seem to hate every new MMO that is announced or is coming out. Are we all just grumpy grognards or are the new crop of games, well, crap?

Qazz asserts that the highly vocal detractors possibly just don’t like MMOs at all, offering a humorous scenario to illustrate his position:

“I've seen many posts by people who say they aren't playing any MMORPG's right now because "there aren't any good games".  Should people who hate on MMO's all day, but can't even say they are even playing one, just admit they don't like MMO's?

Here is an interview from the HappyVille Pie Competition to illustrate my thoughts.

___________

Mayor Morpg: "Welcome to the HappyVille Pie Competition.  Mr. Fussy McCritik will be judging today. Well Fussy...talk to me about your thoughts on the competition?"

Fussy McCritik: "All of the pies suck.  They make me want to puke. They're all made so people will buy them. I can't stand any pie that is made today."

Mayor Morpg: "Well, to me it sounds like you don't like pie...do you think you really should be judging a pie contest?"

Fussy McCritik: "STFU, I know all about pies.  I'm just waiting for somebody to make a good one."

Mayor Morpg: "Fussy, if there isn't a single pie that you like, then you just don't like pies. Just admit it."

Fussy McCritik: "You don't get it do you? Go back to your World of Walnut pie. I'm done with this interview."”

TrunksZ simply feels that “haters gonna hate”:

“Haters gonna hate, I know is a cliche but is true, some people just hate out of pure hate, for example WoW, we all now that theres a big part of this site community that hates WoW and if you think otherwise you are probably going to get trolled, some people hate WoW for their own personal reasons, some others just hate it because others hate it and don't have a personal opinion about it and some others hate it because thats what they do, AKA Trolls.”

Uquipo (along with several others) feel that the hate is due to the nostalgia many MMO gamers feel for their first MMO and their desire for new MMOs to recreate that:

“They fell in love with their first MMO, whether it was UO, EQ1, AC, SWG whatever.
.
They are trying to recapture that first blush experience. This is impossible because they are suffering from nostalgia and no game can live up to a perfect mental image.
.
So they sit in the forum and gripe.”

Kyleran disagrees that the hate simply stems from nostalgia:

“You continue to post this  "nostalgia" theory and fail to acknowledge that today's MMO's are designed quite a bit differently from their early forebearers and for those who preferred the "old style" today's games are found wanting in terms of gameplay and features.

DAOC was my 2nd MMO and I've been looking for a replacement for quite some time.  Nothing has come even remotely close, not even WAR.  (the influence of WOW's success is much too strong for Dev's to ignore these days)

That said, I did find EVE many years later, and while it is quite different from DAOC, its still  manages to be fun because of its unique implemenation of game play.

What isn't fun is that most other games follow the model started by EQ which reached its peak in WOW and has been poorly copied since then.  Those games (outside of WOW) I dislike.  (hate is too strong a word)”

Kuatosune takes the opposite argument of nostalgia, asserting that new MMOs are too much alike instead:

“The biggest reason people hate on MMOs is that going from one to another feels the same.  It might have a shiny new wrapper on the outside but the core is exactly the same as the one you had left the new game for.  So when you fight through the same kind of content with similar quest lines and grind it's very easy to start getting grumpy about our choices out there.  As a community we've had so many great hopes on games only to have them crushed time and time again.  At this point we're all waiting for the game that will give us our golden carrot so that we'll be happy.  So we all get our hopes up only to have them crushed and the cycle continues.

I believe that the market has become over saturated with mediocre product meant to be cash cows for their producers.  Our only hope is that the cows wither up and die so that developers might innovate a bit more.”

Me? I don’t really think there is a straight answer to this. Given the time and emotional investment (some people can play a single MMO for years on end) we all look for different things from these games, and our tastes, preferences, etc. are so diverse that I think it all just gets jumbled together when a new game is announced. The game may hit the mark for a subset of people, but not appeal at all (or outright offend) many other groups of people for any number of different reasons. Collectively, the latter group is larger and more vocal and so it would appear we just hate everything, but I really don’t think that’s the case.

On the other hand, it is true that many MMO games that have come out or are coming out are simply derivative clones and there is certainly a good deal of stagnation in the genre. I feel many MMO gamers are united in that feeling and so that can breed a lot of negativity when a game is announced that doesn’t quite offer enough new, this is especially true if the game is being developed with a licensed IP.

Why do you think there’s so much hate in the MMO genre? Let us know in the comments below!

ultrastoat writes:

the pie analogy was probably the best one.

Thu Jul 29 2010 1:24PM Report
dragonbrand writes: Loved the pie analogy Thu Jul 29 2010 1:48PM Report
severius writes:

Basically, anyone who dares to have an opinion that differntiates from someone else's will be labeled a hater.  I think it is far more indicative of the issue with narcissism and entitlement that runs rampant through not just the community but society in general.

There is no longer a middle ground of reasoned and thought out opinions whether it comes to games, politics, or anything anymore.  It is easy to label someone a hater, far easier than acually listening to what someone has to say and, God forbid, having any sense of empathy for your fellow human beings.

The "pie" analogy is a perfect example, look at the names used which shows far more about the person attempting to make the analogy than anything about the fictitious participants.

Thu Jul 29 2010 2:12PM Report
spookydom writes:

Somehow I missed this thread first time around. The pie analogy should be up on the home page for ever. classic and very true. I have to agree with Kuatosunes opinion. Really could not have put it better myself.

Thu Jul 29 2010 2:19PM Report
grndzro writes:

If Developers would quit putting out games I wouldn't give the crap my neighbors dog put on my lawn last week for I might quit hating new games.

Thu Jul 29 2010 2:36PM Report
solocrono writes:

Pie example ftw. :)

Thu Jul 29 2010 4:24PM Report
Shinami writes:

Like i said years ago :)

 

"I not a racist, biggot or discriminator, how dare you? I hate everyone and everything equally!" ^_^

Thu Jul 29 2010 4:46PM Report
Krux writes:

Haters gonna hate and blnd sheep with feelings of entitlement of winning or garnerning everything in-game for just showing up, like a welfare glommer that rationalizes that more successful and engaged folks are there to subsidize their accomplishments, isn't going to change.   In addition to many that have this delusional sense of new car smell of a clone product amounting to substance.

 

The haters gonna hate and the delusioned gonna be delusional.  /shrug

Thu Jul 29 2010 5:16PM Report
saluk writes:

Market is saturated with crap. It's amazing how much crap there is that developers can put out! Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. How many times have most of us been fooled by one "best game ever" or another? It happens so much more often with this genre than any other genre, because the nature of the games makes expectations that much higher. It's easier to just hate, because then we wont get our hearts broken anymore. WoW is easy to hate on, because a lot of people see it as the trojan horse that started all of the crappy games. In some ways that's absolutely right. The truth is, most of the high tier games are not worth the hate leveled at them, especially successful titles like WoW. but the genre has gone in a direction that old timers might find difficult to stomach. Virtual world is out, theme park is in. Face that fact or leave the genre. Some of these people really just don't like MMO's. They might like the idea of what an MMO might be in their head, but the real version cannot live up to that.

Thu Jul 29 2010 5:16PM Report
MumboJumbo writes:

Check out the pie/cake competition analogy in the orginal post.

Only a few games have really hit the heights of mmo greatness. A lot of lost commitment, disappointment, waiting and broken promises or expectations, it's no surprise there is a lot of negative comments.

But also constructive criticism is better tool for describing your opinion of a bad game. It's a lot easier to review a game you like than one you don't but review it should be.

Thu Jul 29 2010 5:50PM Report
Toothman writes:

I know what I want.  And what they are now making isn't it.

Thu Jul 29 2010 6:54PM Report
hogscraper writes:

People always tend to overlook the fact that alot of what made that first or second MMO so great was the newness of the concept. That feeling comes entirely from inside you and what you are willing to be intrigued/entertained/inspired by. If you decide to raise your standards every single time you experience something you will always be on the look out for something so great it will never exist. You can never get that back from something other people are doing but only what you are willing to let yourself feel. If they're not smart enough to realize that then they will always be angry at pretty much every game they will ever play. 

Most of the hate on games I see is from ME ME ME types who expect each new game to deliver greatness while they passively accept it. If you can't accept full responsibility for how you feel about something you can only expect to be eventually disappointed by every single new thing you ever encounter. 

Every single MMO that has ever been released or ever will be released is made up of about the same things. You kill stuff to get stronger in order to kill stronger stuff. Usually there's crafting and sometimes there's housing. The devs can add in all the fluff and sparkle they want but in the end you will always be completing some variation of get better in whatever your doing for the ability to get better doing better stuff. Once you get bored of that there is no turning back, only hate that you can't accept that you've given up having fun in this medium. 

Thu Jul 29 2010 7:01PM Report
maplestone writes:

It's all about balance.  To find the truth, in the presence of hype you have to hate.

Thu Jul 29 2010 7:09PM Report
GustavoM writes: There's a difference between someone who likes to express his opinions on someone who just want to throw his anger/fury/rage/whatever on a game. I.e, a hater/butthurt/someone pretending to be one just to troll'n. Thu Jul 29 2010 9:14PM Report
MMOrUS writes:

If we use the "Nostalgia" theory then it's easier to explain the reason why so many new MMO's just don't hit the mark, the new players that where brought into the genre via WoW will never find a game that lives up to thier expectations, plus the 7 million chineese players will undoubtedly stick with Asian games anyway when they are done with WoW.

I do feel pity though for those that have to constantly post such negative views of the genre, they are continually drawing out their desire to see only the bad in new games and the studio's that create them, some will hold a grudge against a single developer or a whole studio for years over something they percieved as being done wrong, ofc sometimes when a whole server system cries out "No" then you have to take notice and say "Perhaps the customers have a point" and in this rare instance the hate for a change is warranted, but to hold onto that hate for years is taking it too far and ppl either need to let it go or seek psychological help to get on with their lives.

Thu Jul 29 2010 11:37PM Report
AureliusLH writes:

It's nothing to do with 'hate' - hate is what inspires violence, racism, and bigotry.

This is actually about people not liking the range of toys they are being offered, and that isn't 'hate', it's 'whining'.

Fri Jul 30 2010 1:20AM Report
Tryphodemos writes:

AureliusLH writes:

It's nothing to do with 'hate' - hate is what inspires violence, racism, and bigotry.

This is actually about people not liking the range of toys they are being offered, and that isn't 'hate', it's 'whining'.

Fri Jul 30 2010 7:20AM

 

QFT

Fri Jul 30 2010 2:20AM Report
Yasou writes:

Two things:

1) We want the WOW! factor back.

2) Deception: We have been deceived by so many new games lately (AoC, Vanguard, WAR, Aion) as they promised original features which finally weren't implemented, that we are affraid of being deceived by any other game that might be released next.

Then of course there will always be a bunch of people trolling just for the sake of it ;)

Fri Jul 30 2010 2:51AM Report
deka01 writes:

Lack of innovation and way to many

Fri Jul 30 2010 3:05AM Report
Lesaret writes:

Personally my pet hate is those people that will flame an upcoming game about features it has/hasn't got when the development cycle is still on-going and all features for the upcoming game haven't even been fully released.

It really does become bad when people have to be so negative and so derivative of a game that isn't even close to release date. Yes, I know many of us have had our hopes up about an upcoming game and been so, so disappointed by it (WAR, Aion, AoC in my case) - but come on, lets try and keep some positivity about things.

In some cases it really does feel as though people have to flame games just to keep themselves busy, now I know thats not really the case, but with so much negativity flying around its not hard to see why people believe that 'haters gotta hate'.

I do think a lot of it though is down to people waiting for that glimpse of amazement they had on their first MMO, for me that was UO - nothing has come close to rivalling it. SWG followed up as my second and yes, it had its problems, but my god the Sandbox for it was great.

Part of the problem as well is really that the market is becoming very, very stagnant with poor clones. I've tried a LOT of MMO's, from F2P to P2P and so many just smell like WoW. The problem with trying to copy one model is that if you fail to pull off the copy well, you will sink - this is purely due to the fact that the game will be compared with what it is copying.

Fri Jul 30 2010 3:27AM Report
cheyane writes:

I have actually consciously tried to find good things about the games I try out. I do this because I don't want to give up on this genre because it is magical to me the first time I played Everquest. I try very hard to not compare but merely enjoy what is before me.

I think I have as a result bored my friends with my endless enthusiasm for new games and even if I give them up after three months I do enjoy those three months. This is not as easy as it sounds because you have to genuinely enjoy the game for it to work. I do this because I am very afraid of losing the magical feeling that made me so addicted to this genre.

I may be the exact antithesis of what this article is discussing. No am not a bloody fool either. I think back to my very first experience in this genre and know without doubt it will be impossible to ever feel that way again simply because I was not even remotely familiar with the computer having quit my job to have a baby I just picked up games as a hobby to while away my time not realising this would take over my life and end it as I knew it. Being unfamiliar with the computer controls and finding myself in an area of the game with 5 food and 5 water and no means to get of a glade that was called Surefall Glade. I did not even know how to chat so was truly not even able to ask any guidance from others. I finally found myself out of the tunnel 2 hours later being completely blind as I was a human too boot without any idea how to equip the candle even that I had in my inventory.

After all that and finally figuring out how to kill the rats and snakes around me to crest a hill and get scared out of my wits and dead in short order to a ghoul at the top. My god tell me how do you recreate all that ever again ? How can you ever get that first time experience ever ,the wonder,the awe ,the fear the absolute joy of discovery and the total conviction that you have just stepped into another dimension. 

Can you blame anyone for being out of love now when each of us secretly long to relive that ?

Fri Jul 30 2010 8:16AM Report
Shinami writes:

When one person hates, can that hatred be justified objectively? If that is possible then the matter is considered to be worth investigating. If hatred is purely subjective, it becomes a lot harder to investigate or evaluate its credibility.

 

The same is true in the Ad populum atmosphere that exists in forums. Type an opposing stance in a first party forum to practically anything and you're the one who is the hater.

 

You don't have to be Objective or Subjective. People Simply will HATE YOU and accuse you of being the hater from simply "not believing."

 

Yeah, Its ok to be different! As long as everyone thinks, acts and reacts the same way! ^_^

Fri Jul 30 2010 8:00PM Report
MisterZebub writes:

I find the pie analogy to be far to simplistic to explain why many MMORPG players dislike the current state of MMOs.


When i was a kid you could go to numerous stores and Mom and Pop bakeries and buy made from scratch, home made pies.
They were incredible. Now days you can't can't find a "home baked" pie anywhere. The pies you can find are mass manufactured
rubbish sweetened with corn syrup rather than sugar, canned fruit instead of fresh ripe fruit, filled with mostly air, and if custard is involved,
expect it to actually be jello pudding. Plus what ever artificial colorings, flavorings and preservatives they have added. And to add insult to injury
they cost about twice as much as it would cost you to buy the real ingredients and just make a good pie yourself. What a load of horse elbows.


THAT is what MMOs are today when compared with their earlier counterparts.


Oh and you could also add this wonderful little play act as well.


Consumer: "Hey WTF!? This is supposed to be the new amazing Carmel Pecan Chocolate Chip Marshmallow, and Blueberry pie. Where the hell are the pecans!?"


Baker: "Oh well you see the pecans aren't ripe yet and we decided it would be in our best interest to start selling pies now instead of waiting until we could give you the product we actually promoted.


We will be adding the pecans in just as quickly as it becomes possible."


Consumer: 'What a rip off."


Consumer: Having tried a slice of pie the following day. "Hey, WTF? These marshmallows are half the size they were yesterday. What gives?"


Baker: "Well you see, we had alot of chocolate chip fanciers complaining that the flavor of the marshmallows was overpowering the flavor of the chocolate chips so we decided reduce the size of the marshmallows to better facilitate their wishes."


Consumer: "But I absolutely LOVE marshmallows!"
Baker: "I'm sorry, we must try to appease every customer equally."


Consumer: "Except for marshmallow lovers apparently."


Consumer: Having tried slice of pie on the third day. "What in the hell are you people playing at!? Now the chocolate chips are half the size they were yesterday. All I can taste is bloody carmel and blueberries!"


Baker: We received quite a few complaints from blueberry fanciers that you could hardly taste the blueberries at all. So in fairness we reduced the size of the chocolate chips to address these complaints.


Consumer: That is ridiculous. Now we are back with the problem that the marshmallows overpower the flavor of the chocolate chips, AND now the pie really tastes mostly of  blueberry, a flavor I might add that just does not go with he rest of the pies ingredients."


Baker: "Again I'm sorry but we must try to appease every customer equally."


Consumer: Shakes head in disgust and walks out of pie shop.


Consumer: After trying slice of pie on the fourth day. "What in the blue bloody hell do you fools think you are doing!? Now the blue berries are twice the size they were yesterday! They completely ruin the pie! That's it! You morons have proven to me you have no clue how to bake a proper pie, I'll never buy anything from you again!


Baker: "I'm sorry you feel that way sir. In our defense many people love our pies. We have people lined up around the block to buy them. Since you have taken a bite of that slice of pie I'm afraid I'll have to charge you for it."


Consumer: "Fine, whatever just ring it up so I can get the hell out of this mad house."
Baker: "Ok let's see, slice of pie, fifteen dollars. Paper plate, and additional one dollar. Plastic fork, and additional three dollars. Napkin, fifty cents."


Consumer: "WHAT!!?? You never charged me for the plate, fork, or napkin before!? What are you playing at!?"


Baker: " Well sir, the costs of running our pie shop have increased we need to switch payment models to make up for our shortfalls."


Consumer: "Wait a minute. You just said people were lined up around the block to buy your pies. How the hell can you not be making money?"


Baker: "Well you see its like this. Most of these people are just waiting until we add pecans to our pies. They don't come here to buy pie anymore, they just come for a few cups of cheap coffee and to hang out with their other pie loving friends for a couple of hours. Since Ron's Pies closed and the other big pie shops are still under construction they don't have anywhere else to go."


Consumer: "Are you people mental? You have all these people taking up space in your shop but they are actually costing you money? Why don't you just increase the cost of your coffee, or better yet add the damn pecans to the pie already. Or you know what? Why don't you fire the morons who make your horrible business decisions and hire someone who knows how to bake great pies?"


Baker: "I'm sorry sir, I'm not about to take pie baking advice from such an obvious pie hater as yourself. Good day sir. Oh before you go please don't forget to fill out this five page questionnaire on why you decided to stop being a patron of our pie shop."


Consumer: Hurtles out of the pie shop under a deep blue cloud of angry obscenities, and vows that some how, some way he will get revenge on the fools that so ruined his love for pie.

 

Fri Jul 30 2010 9:49PM Report
daeandor writes:

What needs to get across is that it is a combination of things.  But for those who say it's just nostalgia, you're wrong.  Back when there were only a few distinct products out there, you could get that "wow" feeling from almost all of them.  EQ1 was my introduction to mmorpgs and I was like, "wow!"  Then DAOC came along and I was like, "wow!"  Then SWG and EVE came along and I was like, "wow!"  Then we got EQ2 and WoW and I went, "meh!"  And ever since, it has been "hrmph."

 

I have liked many games since the beginnings, but none have literally been good enough to create that "wow" feeling.  It's not nostalgia, it's just fact.  Back then, each game was generally distinctly different, exploring something new.  Now, it is all the same.  The gameplay is the same, the UI's are the same, the combat is roughly equivelant, the quest structure is similar, etc.  Many of the games are excellent, but they are not really different.  That's what frustrates me now.

Sun Aug 01 2010 8:34AM Report
Zombiefish writes:

I love pies.  Unfortunately, I want apple, caramel, pecan, and grahm cracker pies... no one is making it... so I do not care for their pies.. granted, I'll try as many of them as possible just in case, but for the most part, I do not care for them.

MMO games are not like other games, for the fact that it is a consistantly moving universe of one sort or another.  A consistantly moving universe requires consistant attention for an undefined amount of time, it is not the FPS where it's 3-10 minute spans of time jump in and out of the game, come back 3 months later, get used to the controls and it's all fine and dandy, nothings different. Or like any other genre in which either your game saves and you will be in the same place with nothing changed whatsoever, or else it's a short round before it resets and again, nothing will be different when you return..

  No.. MMO's require immersion to fully enjoy, a truely enjoyable MMO will be enjoyed by a player for years on a fairly consistant basis... so.. If I already understand that I'll be eating this pie for years to come, it better be the pie I love.. and it had better stay very close to that same pie or better after I enter the shop for the 2,000th time and order it.

Mon Aug 02 2010 1:13AM Report
Zombiefish writes:

(forgot to mention an important point..)

Especially if i'm going to be paying over 7 times more for this pie than any other shops on the street would ever charge to enjoy their bland pies forever.. (and still risk either the pie shop shutting down or them kicking me out for missing a payment regardless of my previous dedicated patronage)

Mon Aug 02 2010 1:19AM Report
Svartlackad writes:

I have one ragequit on my hands. It was back when I was looking around for F2P games due to lack of money, waiting to get my WAR sub up again. So i tried ALOT of games back then and stuck in one, Pheonix Dynasty Online. It was a cool game, awesome community and events held often. I really got the hang of everything. Except, i didn't really "read into information" so to speak. So I was out grinding as usual (I love grinding <3) and had just grinded 3 weeks to get my staff so was trying it out a bit when a high-leveled guy came up and asked to PvP. I said I was too low of level to combat him but he insisted and said he'd do it naked. That's where ir went wrong. I thought "Cool, just for fun then", killed in a second and saw... My staff was gone! I screamed so loud my girlfriend thought I was dying.

Those were the times. Haha. :D

Mon Aug 02 2010 4:14PM Report

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