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The staff of MMORPG.com gets together to bring you some behind the scenes insights on stories, the industry and the site itself.

Author: staffblog

Contributors: BillMurphy,MikeB,garrett,SBFord,Grakulen,

How Important is PvP to You?

Posted by MikeB Thursday May 12 2011 at 4:50PM
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This week's Community Spotlight focuses on the thread "How big of an issue is PVP?" by Dewm. Let's get things started with Dewm himself:

On one of these other threads (won't mention it because you already know what i'm talking about) people have turned the discussion to PVP, whether its FFA, or what-not. And I guess my question is: In a MMO world, how big of a deal is PVP?

Would you play a pure PVE game? or would you prefere somthing that is laced with PVP like WoW?

I know for me PVP is a none issue, I hate it...don't do it. and try to stay away from it.

For Loktofeit, it varies:

It depends on what I'm looking for in an MMO. 

Aion -  the PVP is nothing more than an nuisance to me and I would definitely resub if it was a PvE game.

EVE - I play for the PvP, whether I'm actively looking for it or just knowing that when I'm hauling those 50 Rifters to lucrative locations there both the overall risk that drove the price up to begin with and the immediate risk of possibly losing it all as I deliver them. I wouldn't paly the game without PVP.

AoC - can take it or leave it, but the fact that it's zero-risk and almost gauranteed gain makes it a nice diversion now and then.

Puzzle Pirates - I would never have lasted a week without PvP in that game, let alone 6 years.

ste2000 doesn't find PvP in an MMO important whatsoever:

It's a non issue.

PvP is not important in a MMO, at all.

MMOs are naturally made to be PvE friendly since they are an extension of single players RPGs

In fact PvP and PVE should be always separate in MMOs, that's what causes the most aggravation within their communities

PvE players do not get on with PvP players and vice versa.

The reason is simple if you balance the game more on the PvE aspect the PvPers will whine, if you do the opposite, the PvErs will complaint.

Ever wondered while recently all MMO forums are just full of complaints, and generally the communities stink?

That's the simple answer.

Personally I am praying that someone will make another full PvE game like EQ

I already play an exellent OPvP game, Darkfall, I just need a full PvE game now.

Yes I like hardcore PvP as much as hardcore PvE, but I hate PvE and PvP together in the same game.

That's a broken formula which works only for WoW.

Inzra on the other hand, is entirely the opposite:

That's funny, cause if I see an mmorpg without PvP I will probably not play it.

To me there's no point playing an online game with others and not allow the full range of actions and reactions from other players.

I.e. in WoW the most interaction I have is with people I cannot PvP with - the friendly faction which I teamed with - , but I'm pretty sure I would be in alot more PvP with them than the enemy faction, simply because of player/character behaviour, if WoW was free-for-all PvP.

If I wanted pure PvE I'd probably play some single player instead, to me it's not an accomplishment to kill some NPC boss that is controlled by a computer, in comparison to beating a player in PvP. Even though some players are bad at PvP they will still have the potential to be alot less predictable than an NPC.

Me? PvP was not initially important to me when I got into MMOs. I looked at MMOs as hopefully an evolution of MUDs where I could find virtual worlds to RP in with the added benefit of things being well, visual, as opposed to text. This didn't really pan out too well and as I continued to play MMOs I found that PvP was another avenue of gameplay I really enjoyed and had a knack for. Nowadays I love a great PVE experience but if there isn't a solid PvP offering along with it it's hard to get me interested. I like to play MMOs long term and I've never been a huge fan of raiding. Sure, I'd love to get through the content once to experience it but I don't like doing it over and over. PvP on the other hand is extremely dynamic and each match is different. MMOs also offer the persistence and progression that goes along with that so it is all the more enticing.

beel writes: it took a while before I ventured into pvp but if there were not pvp in a morg now I probably wouldn't play it. In fact as I wait for star wars knights of the old republic to come out I'm considering (hesitantly) in going for a full pvp world Thu May 12 2011 5:57PM Report
ray12k writes:

pvp brings the rush of killing an enemy, protecting yourself and the unpredictable equation that keeps us from waking up in the matrix lol

Thu May 12 2011 6:03PM Report
kjempff writes:

When I hear about what makes pvp lovers tick, then it makes sense, but even knowing this and trying to get the same out of pvp, I don't suceed in much more than a glimpse of it all, before I become bored. I don't suck at pvp and give it up, it just doesn't do much for me by itself, there has to be a reward other than feeling superior.

As an example of the only pvp I did for some time is WoW battlegrounds. It was at times fun when there was a tactic or a clever trick that worked, but what made me stay was the fact that it gave points that could be used to buy gear - The moment I got the gear I wanted, I stopped pvp on that char.

Another example is 3D shooters, in my case Unreal is the one, and it was fun for a few weeks. In Unreal there is no reward for winning so that should disprove my point before, but Unreal (or other 3d shooters) are designed and optimized specifically for pvp and I think that makes the difference.

So I am not a fan of pvp, but when the pvp is really good it can catch me. Problem is pvp is often forced upon a game as a feature to have just like tradeskilling or housing, and the game never gets optimized for a great pvp experience. Because developers think they need to check a feature list out, here also pvp it ends up having poor quality everything.. this goes for pvp aswell offcourse. Only the really big players suck as blizzard have the resources to make good pvp while also keeping other features up to a decent quality, but it will never be perfect.

Thu May 12 2011 6:30PM Report
lectrocuda writes:

PvP should be PvE. The proper formula has yet to be formulated.

Thu May 12 2011 7:56PM Report
Nesrie writes:

I'd rather not have PvP at all.

Thu May 12 2011 8:56PM Report
Studdley writes:

PVP is the most important thing in an MMO for me. Sure nobody has really got it completely right yet, but lots of titles have added a cool feature or two to the PVP experience. PVP has come a long way since the Meridian 59 days. When it is bad it can really be a horrible experience, but when it is done well it can be one of the most rewarding (and thrilling) experiences in a game. To out-think your opponent, and that opponent is thinking back, not just an AI that will always become predictable.

 On another note, I solo mainly too. According to some people I shouldn't be ALLOWED to do that in an MMO either. I see it that there should be plenty of room in an MMO for everyone to get to play the game their own way.

Thu May 12 2011 9:09PM Report
Nobadeeftw writes:

I'm right with Kjempff.  I like PvP; but, I feel it's kind of useless if there is no real purpose to it in the grand scheme of things.  If it's just a bunch of the same people running around in circles plugging each other over and over... crap just thinking about that makes me bored.  I'm also in line with STE2000's perspective.  PvP can be fun in an MMO; but, when you start mixing a PvE game with a PvP game, you just end up with two games that are totally deluted and often at odds with one another.

Thu May 12 2011 10:01PM Report
Nova700 writes:

I am in the realm if it doesn't have pvp there is no playing it.  This is coming from a player who's favorite MMO is and was EQ.  The pvp in the game was inbalanced sure, but just the thrill of fighting the other factions off trying to get to a raid boss was amasing.  Guilds formed alliances and specific guilds hated each other so much opposing members became KOS.  It added an entirely other element of suprise and fun, and so when I play games like WOW the pvp is boring and repetative just like the raiding.  I miss EQ............

Thu May 12 2011 10:12PM Report
Senadina writes:

Most of the time I avoid PvP, because most of the time it is unfun. BUT, with real organization and teamwork it can be a blast. It's just that teamwork so rarely happens, it is just me, me, me and my kill/death ratio. So I will only play games where PvP is voluntary and segregated, kept out of the PvE area, and worth experience and/or progression in it's own right. And then only if I'm in the mood. I would play a strictly PvE game in a heartbeat but not a strictly PvP game. Not important at all.

Thu May 12 2011 10:15PM Report
ElderRat writes:

It depends on how it is handled. I like eVE's the best and Mortal Online's the worst. EVE there are certain places and certain actions that will get you killed, if you are aware  of them you are ok. In Mortal Online I could not go outside a city and cut down a tree without a very large chance of being killed by someone who was megalevels above me. I see no attraction in a game where high level  players can kill the lower level players with no risk or penalties.   In EVE if you do enough bad things you have a problem entering Hi-Sec.  Just my opinion but PvP should be a MINOR part of a game, there should be some but it should not be what the game is about.

Fri May 13 2011 12:03AM Report
ElderRat writes:

It depends on how it is handled. I like eVE's the best and Mortal Online's the worst. EVE there are certain places and certain actions that will get you killed, if you are aware  of them you are ok. In Mortal Online I could not go outside a city and cut down a tree without a very large chance of being killed by someone who was megalevels above me. I see no attraction in a game where high level  players can kill the lower level players with no risk or penalties.   In EVE if you do enough bad things you have a problem entering Hi-Sec.  Just my opinion but PvP should be a MINOR part of a game, there should be some but it should not be what the game is about.

Fri May 13 2011 12:03AM Report
jeeshadow writes:

PvP is why i came into MMORPG's in the first place.  I popped my mmo cherry on DAoC and was spellbound by the pvp.  The relic raids, the castle seiges and defences, it was all so addicting!

 

I've yet to experience anything like those early days of DAoC.  So, I find I'm becoming less and less interested in pvp.

Fri May 13 2011 12:12AM Report
lisarob writes:

Nah pvp is so repetitious  i click faster than you i move faster than you i have better gear than you have quicker reflexes than you have more mates than you. thats pvp in my eyes and its boring for me to learn them skills as some would call it.

Fri May 13 2011 1:02AM Report
Ragamok writes:

I agree pvp can be fun. I also agree that if  pvp is only a lot of people killing each other over and over again for bragging rights, it is extremely boring. Personally, I too would like to see a few good  PvE games like EQ come out. I would also love to see a game where ALL instancecs allowed a solo as well as a group aption.

Fri May 13 2011 1:07AM Report
DarkPony writes:

What would be a massive multiplayer online game without fun ways to compete with eachother? Not much fun to me.

It adds a limitless amount of content and adds a lot of long lasting spice to a game world in the case of world pvp (whether there are dedicated pvp objectives or not). A gameworld without it ultimately becomes predictable and stale with only a.i. agro ranges to take into account when going about your chores

Fri May 13 2011 1:13AM Report
David99 writes:

PVE in MMO's is sooooo boring, easy, predictable, and repetitive. I wouldn't play a PVE only MMO if you paid me.

PVP all the way! Preferably not instanced, with meaningful world PVP (FFA prefered so guild politics plays a role).

Fri May 13 2011 1:16AM Report
demiqus writes:

I haven't played an mmorpg yet that manages to blend pve and pvp ,in my mind, correctly yet. It's either level/ gear biased , or theres a strange confusion ie needing to pve to pvp . A few came close .

If I want to pvp , I play Planetside : 3 factions , a lvl 1 can kill a lvl 40 , no gear dependance . Pure pvp . Lvl just gives you more options , not god mode.

If an mmorpg comes along that can deliver the same ethos, I'll try it . In the meantime , I stick to pve in mmorpg , mainly to challenge myself against elites etc .

The thing with pve is, no matter how it's incorporated , it will never be as challenging as facing a human opponent.

Fri May 13 2011 1:45AM Report
daltanious writes:

0.

Could not care less. Would never ever play pvp only game of any kind.

And if we look at many games how many pve vs pvp servers they have .... I can only conclude such players that really play pvp are in big minority (with exception of those that are constantly big mouthing on chat "lfg pvp guild" and the do this on PVE servers).

But pvp players they are very very strong vocaly.

For this reason many game companies fell into trap and want their pve game to have also pvp component which usually result close to disaster. Or they create pvp only game that is in constant starvation.

Fri May 13 2011 4:40AM Report
bunnyhopper writes:

Out of a scale of 10 with regards to importance. PvP ranks as a 10 for me.

Fri May 13 2011 5:04AM Report
WSIMike writes:

If it's PvP that includes meaningful rewards that are actually beneficial to the players competing for them (such as sieging and controlling territory, resources, etc), as well as player-driven (ie. no pre-set factions), and the system allows and encourages competition that's not only physical (actually fighting each other) but also plays out through player/clan/guild politics... and it does all this well, then I find it interesting and worthwhile.

Lineage 2 is one example of a MMO whose PvP setup is done beautifully, IMO.

There also has to be consequences and repercussions from PvP. The act of killing another player (or even NPCs if the game allows it) should carry penalties in the game world. For example, life should be difficult for the type who enjoys indiscriminately killing other players... particularly your typical "griefer" type who goes out of their way to harass people "because they can", particularly those far weaker than themselves.

They should be labeled an outlaw and suffer the consquences of being one. If someone's "hardcore" enough to engage in those kinds of activities, then they should be "hardcore" enough to deal with the consequences of it.

I always find it funny when I see people brag on forums of being "hardcore PvP'ers" who "pwn" people, become quickly reduced to whiney babies when they find they can't hunt newbie areas, killilng all the brand-new players for easy kills with impunity. And, in my experience, those are the first people to complain, and always the loudest.

If you're going to add PvP to a MMO, go all the way. Don't tack it on as "a system", make it part of the entire game. Looking at L2 again, those who've played it for a while will know just how many aspects of that game - PvE *and* PvP - influence or are influenced by PvP. It ties into almost everything in the game. It's pervasive. It's not a discrete system tacked on to an otherwise non-PvP game.

Conversely, if you're going to make a game with a heavy emphasis on the PvE experience, then I think PvP should be left out, or at best, implemented in a way such as battlegrounds in WoW... separate from and not influential in the main game.

Fri May 13 2011 6:24AM Report
Bluehound17 writes:

if a game is not pvp centered then it is crap sorry PVE heroes ;) i play MMO to be a nuisance to whatever game i play and im proud to be the most hated player killer on the server ;)

Fri May 13 2011 7:07AM Report
Shadanwolf writes:

RVR-Realm vs Realm is essential.Not pvp. RVR.

Fri May 13 2011 7:18AM Report
thremma writes:

I dislike and avoid it.  There are several games I refuse to play because there is not an option to NOT pvp.

Fri May 13 2011 7:24AM Report
Struggs writes:

PvP is pretty important to me in an mmorpg.  And I agree with what a lot of other people have said about games not being able to blend pve with pvp one always seems to make the other suffer a little bit.

 

I like to think SWG pre-cu world pvp was about as good as it got. The ability to war between same faction guilds and opposite factions was such a rush.  And the base busting was the ultimate pvp.  Finding a vulnerable base and getting the right classes and enough people to destroy it was awesome. Yes there were tons of bugs but the concept and fun highly out weighed the imperfections.

 

I also think it depends on the game.  It saddens me to see people excited for the PvE in SWTOR. PvE should only exist as a part of PVP. Its Star Wars your enemy is litteraly the opposite faction not some boss in a dungeon(flash point). There is room for some small PvE stuff but the game should be PvP based.

If the game introduces two (or more) factions who have faught each other or hate each other and there is no pvp it makes zero sense to me.  If your factions co-exist and have a common goal of fighting invaders of a world I could totaly play with just PvE but the lore for most mmorpg does no read that way.

In the end if the games lore hints to fighting between factions I can't play it if there isn't pvp and meaningful pvp at that.

Fri May 13 2011 7:37AM Report
DSBHR writes:

I started gaming with FPS games like CounterStrike, Tribes, and others.  That is my opinion is the place for PVP and a lot of fun.  Unfortunately there are a lot of cheater in those type games which ruined the genre for many.

 

To often in MMOs PVP is used mainly because the development is lazy.  Make a map and let the players be the content.  Also I don't think most people enjoy being ganked when they are doing something else other than PVP at the time.  A PVP only game similar to Planetside is good for an MMO and I enjoyed that some but would much rather have actual content in a character leveling MMO.  PVP in a character leveling MMO causes a lot of people to pass.

Fri May 13 2011 7:44AM Report
Lansyr writes:

I like pvp, I do not like pvp in an rpg game.

I'd like to see two different game frameworks develop, the MMOPVP and a return to MMORPG.  Most of the titles today are so watered down trying to be everything to everyone that they end up having too little to offer any segment of the online gaming community.

Pvp games are about the player to player challenge and players act like nothing encoded into an AI can.  This includes clever strategies, min/maxing the games encoded rules (doing things a dev may not have considered because you can), ganking, out thinking, and generally using and finding any advantage you can in order to beat a foe.

I will not pretend PVE and RPG mean the same thing, but rarely can you experience RPG within a pvp world because the player behavior will dominate the game experience.  In a PVE environment, a player experiences the content as developed and planned by the designer and can remain focused on the experience that content is intended to offer.

There are millions of players and everyone does not play an online game looking for the same gaming experiences.  The more developers create mega money MMO's with a grocery list of content checkboxes intended to fulfill all of the myriad player desires, the more they set themselves up to fail because no one will find their needs met and will quickly drift to the next FOTM game or stop playing MMO's altogether.

Fri May 13 2011 10:06AM Report
Praylor writes:

MMO's can never have meaningful PVP because of one fact. All MMO's are gear dependant and the fact that players would not accept the perma death and loss of gear that would make PvP a real win /loss  experiance.

I get tickled at people that say they are PvP'ers that play MMO's. These are carebear wanna be PvP'ers that want their cake and eat it to. Afriad to step off into the world of true PvP.

Because MMO's fear lawsuits from players getting ganked and sueing them for the lost gear, true PvP is not gonna happen on any MMO.

MMO's are in it for the money, so they provide a Carebear type PvP and thus the true sense of survival and pain of loss is not experianced by many so called top PvP'ers.

So to answer the OP, PvP in MMO's is irrealevent and in my humble opion does not even exist. It's some kind of hybrid epic failure that sullies the name of Player versus Player combat.

Fri May 13 2011 3:42PM Report
babyeater writes:

ive found that pvp and pve should never mix.

they can co exist but should use thier own rules that only work for them and dont have any bearing on the other.  

if my class has an ability in pve that does something to an npc it wont necessarily to that exact same thing to a player in pvp

too many times abilities get changed because what seemed ok for pve turned out too powerful or too week for pvp, if they had seperate rulesets this would have been avoided.

so let griefers, i mean pvp-ers have thier pvp but dont let it affect what us care bears i mean pve-ers do or how we do things.

Fri May 13 2011 9:48PM Report
paroxysm writes:

I like to have both in one game, but in most games it does not work.  As in, balance becomes a huge issue.  I believe it was best said by someone else that I can't recall the name of:

If you don't want people to do a certain amount of damage in PvP, why do you create PvE scenarios that require it?

If everyone has to have access to the best gear to compete, maybe there is too much character value in the gear they wear and too big of a divide in levels/tiers of gear.

Basically, they create two competiting systems.  Then they start to remove choices and favor homogenization to try to bring them on par instead of making them require equal levels of characters and gear.  If you don't want a character to have 20 seconds of continuous stunning, don't build a character or raid/dungeon that needs it in any scenario, PvE or PvP.

Sat May 14 2011 1:26AM Report
Vidir writes:

PvP is important for me to have as small spaxe as possible in the games I play. I allways Try find a game that has no pvp at all when looking for a new game. My reason for avoiding games with pvp focus is , I dont like pvp at all and I feel that when a game has pvp in it there is allways class ballancing and nerfing in every patch even in older games.

Sat May 14 2011 2:24PM Report
dogdersROC writes:

Pvp in RPGs has always been too unbalanced for my tastes. I rarely recall being in a fair fight against 1 other person of my level and equipment. Then throw in the griefing, I prefer not to bother with pvp again unless its on my console or fps games.

 

Planetside was great, only grief I endured was from my own side. DCUO was awful, rampant exploiting and gimping. Things have not gotten better, only worse as devs cater to the whines of the pvp players.

Sat May 14 2011 3:19PM Report
Isane writes:

Not at All I would rather Developers make a decent game and not resort to easy mode. Player vs Player...

I guess its and easy way to skip any decent design or content.

Sat May 14 2011 5:51PM Report
Jumdor writes:

I think it all stems from what your mindset is going into gaming. Are you naturally competitive or cooperative. I don't value the need nor have the interest to prove myself to anyone or anything by defeating other players in something that provides no real gain other than hording your achievement over someone's head.

I don't sneer at those who enjoy it. I just have never had the interest.

Now you put me in a room with some of these advertisers like the ones above and I'll be happy to do some real PvP for no rewards at all. =I

Sun May 15 2011 1:34AM Report
Toxicmoon writes:
PVP adds a lot of excitement and flavor to the grind.  However the enjoyment is community based.  If the game leans towards more mature 25+ in age, PVP will be one sided .  Older Player bases have bigger egos and will only seek PVP out while being in large gank  groups taking out solo or duo players. [Example: EQ2, Eve]
 
While a game that’s for all ages you’ll often find 1 on 1 encounters making for a more interesting and rewarding experience.  The catch 22 situation however is the community being very immature and annoying.[Example: WOW, Rift]
Sun May 15 2011 11:24AM Report
hayes303 writes:

I prefer PVE games to be without PVP. I don;t mind PVP, but I absolutly hate the endless class "balancing" that comes with putting it into a PVE game.

Sun May 15 2011 12:17PM Report
Uhwop writes:

Has to have non-restricted PvP.  That's not to say it must be FFA.  It can be faction based like DAoC, or WoW, but it can't be religated to arenas like GW, and oddly enough WoW.

Open world PvP, with purpose.

Arenas are fine, but they shouldn't be the brunt of the PvP.  It breaks immersion.

Sun May 15 2011 1:17PM Report
obeloviper95 writes:

I am not a big fan of PVP but i liked the early version of SWG.

Where it was open world PVP,BUT you could make yourself covert and not have to worry about getting atacked while your out collecting materials, then you could easily go to a recruiter maker yourself Overt then go hunting.

Seemed to please everyone.

Was openworld PVP everywhere.

But yet PVE players could totally avoid it everwhere.

Sun May 15 2011 2:47PM Report
kzaske writes:

I am with Hays303; I don't mind PvP just don't muck up the PvE game to make PvP "better."

I tend to avoid PvP mostly because I don't see a point to it.  If it moved along the story or actually served a purpose then I would do more of it, as it is I have yet to see a game where PvP really made any difference or moved along the story. 

Sun May 15 2011 4:12PM Report
timeraider writes:

<------- 100% pvp, cant live without it :P

Mon May 16 2011 2:58AM Report
sickdoll writes: POTBS OMG Im drunk, Mort B, the best freetrader PVPer ever. I was Druall Albion Isuelt Paladin, EPIC rvr, late night duells with Bedlam or The Fires Within? Yes please. Without PVP mmorpg are not worth even buying. To bad no one has made a multi faction mmo worth playing in years... Mon May 16 2011 1:15PM Report
sickdoll writes: UO was my first MMO, that game had a fun system as well. Get 200 players, create a guild, declare war on everyone, camp a town and go crazy for days. So fun watching an army pour out of moongates. Mon May 16 2011 1:20PM Report
SkullFighter writes:

I guess in a sense it boils down to what you were brought up on.  UO was my first MMO therefore if an MMO does not have PvP I generally will not sub to it for very long.  I am of the opinion that MMO's have to have PvP in some form to survive.

Tue May 17 2011 5:22PM Report
Velocinox writes:

PvP is the locust plague of MMOs. They join, play it as much as they can and then move on to the next PvP MMO. It's the same with FPSs. The newest one is always the busiest one.

Look at the biggest MMOs, PvP is just an after thought. All of the Major PvP MMO releases have been 6 month wonders.

PvErs are carebears?

PvPers are whiners.

Wed May 18 2011 12:05AM Report
TiiKii writes:

PvP does not matter to me one bit. If the game I am playing has it, then will give it a go, as long as there is no corpse camping involved! I hate that!!

Also, if a game has PvP and if you die you lose half of your gear or weapons..  pfftt,  won't play that sort of pvp game. I work to hard for what I acquire in a game, will NOT have it taken from me. - Take exp, take rep, but never the gear!

Mon May 23 2011 2:27PM Report
baddog66 writes:

PVErs cannot be forced to PVP. It seems that some PVPers think forcing everyone in pvp will emrich their experience. An example of this is Aion where players left rather than stay to be ganked  or forced to pvp to advance. i found great pvp when its separate and you can go pvp if you chose. So many pvpers don't like it when others are as prepared as they are and they cannot gank but rather must duel on fairly even skill levels.

Tue Mar 13 2012 8:31AM Report

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