Yep, it's true.. I'm jumping on the "let's discuss FFA PvP again" bandwagon.
Here are my viewpoints, cut/pasted from other blogs on this site (like this one)
I really think that only a small % of people who want FFA PvP want it for the ability to gank/griefer others. Those that do want to gank/grief others are just tools, and nothing can be done for them.
I believe that the majority who want FFA PvP really just want FFA faction/guild PvP. They want to choose their alliances, choose their enemies, and wage their own wars, not the pre-defined allies/enemies the devs force them into.
If you were to create a game where Guilds could wage war with each other, and guilds could band together to form their own factions, and thus choose what other guilds/faction to war against, that would be enough FFA PvP for the majority of those who want FFA PvP.
For the small minority that just want to gank/grief random players and slaughter noobs, well, you are the reason FFA PvP doesn't exist anymore. It's not the "carebears" fault, it's yours.
You made my point for me by saying "With FFA-PvP you had the anti-PK guilds, the PK guilds, the neutral guilds, the policiing guilds and the gank squads everywhere, all in a harmony in a system that worked."
You are right, like I said, FFA PvP is all about community.
If you aren't one of these guilds, these "factions" then you are merely the victim of the system, not a participant in it.
HENCE, why so many games have gone to or are going to Faction based and/or guild based PvP only.
It garauntees that those who PvP aren't outside the system, but a part of it.
Getting ganked (which I define as simply being outnumbers/ambushed/swarmed etc.) is totally OK and a part of the game, IF you are a member of the faction/guild in opposition to those that ganked you.
If you are random Joe unguilded noob and a squad of PKs randomly kills you, it sucks, they are cowards, and you hate the game for it.
Get what I'm saying?
FFA PvP ends up breaking down into these groups, these guilds, these factions anyway, but it still REALLY sucks for those who are not part of the system.
And that, I think, is the reason so many dislike FFA PvP.
FFA PvP only "works" if the community is there.
The "lone wolf" will always be the victim. I hated the FFA PvP in UO until I joined up with a large guild. Garaunteed protection and friends who wouldn't grief you. It completely changed the game for me.
If everyone who played was garaunteed a good guild to run with and some teammates to support them, FFA PvP is actually not that FFA, but instead factional. It will break down in Guild vs. Guild or Faction vs. Faction, but there will always be those without a guild or faction to align themselves with, and they will always be the victim or victimize others.
That is why FFA PvP was pretty much abandoned long ago and Faction or Guild based PvP has become the "norm." It garauntees support and belongingness, and help eliminate the "random PK" factor which can (and will) ruin the game.
Open world (i.e. non instanced/balanced teams) PvP is generally all about strength in numbers. Sure, player skill, terrain, preparedness etc. will always help, but no matter those factors 30 vs 10 I'm always putting my money on the team of 30.
Griefing someone for no reason, which I define as "killing someone who has absolutely zero chance of defending themselves" just to be a d*ck and kill them is childish. The more that can be done to prevent this, the better. Even in a "FFA" game, measures SHOULD be taken to prevent vets from slaughtering noobs.
Vets who kill noobs are cowards. This is not an argument, it is fact. They blah blah blah about "Real PvP and challenge" but ganking/griefing is not real PvP, nor is it challening, it's a pathetic practice by insecure *ssholes who are too scared and cowardly to start a fair fight. Their bullys. Sad, lonely bullys.
Real PvP, just to let you know, is a fair fight or a fight where one party/person has a slight advantage, but the possibility of loss is always there. Ganking/griefing create NO possibility of loss, and are thus NOT real PvP. It's cowardice.
Most FFA PvP i have ever seen ends up being faction/guild vs. faction/guild anyway, it's just the few *sshats who are bored/unguilded etc. will greif/gank random noobs to feel better about themselves, and it's always pathetic.
In terms of full looting, it only "works" when gear is easily replaced and their is no "uber" gear. Like old Ultima Online. Full looting simple will not work in item centric games, nor will ever be attempted by any game that is item centric. Item centric + full loot = bankrupt devs and server shut down.
The closest I think we'll ever see in a modern, AAA title to FFA PvP is games with faction vs. faction and Guild vs. Guild. Any faction member can kill any one of an opposite faction at any time, any where. Any guild can declare war on any other guild, no matter the faction, and those guilds can kill each other any time, any where.
That is as close as I believe we'll see to true FFA in any future released AAA title.
Look at EVE, the only remaining mostly FFA PvP game. The majority of the uber-awesome exciting PvP people talk about is Corp vs. Corp. Corps are allowed to choose who they war with, who they ally with. But you also have ganker/griefer pilots who ruin the game for others because they are too scared to join the big conflicts, fight fairly, and risk losing their precious stuff.
User Comments
I always enjoy reading your blogs about what you have to say about mmorpg's and yet again I am not disappointed. Although I don't feel overly strong about anything enough to thoroughly agree or disagree, it is always pleasant to be able to see someone else's thoughtful comments about issues in mmo's.
Once again, great job with the blogs, well written and well thought out information is a consistency that I enjoy.
Thanks!
I do what I can. Sorry it's such a long read!
I agree with much of what you've written, but you have to realise most developers aim for the casual gaming market, which makes FFA PvP extremely hard to implement.
Like you wrote, FFA PvP is very community dependent, so eventually after launch, strong-arm groups/guilds will emerge and start to dominate the battlefield. This means that the casual player is at the bottom of the pecking order. Basically Joe Average has two choices, either join up as a low-ranking member in a 'zerg' guild or try to fight it out in a smaller guild, which he really does not have time for.
Now, when faced this reality, Joe average is very likely to not enjoy playing the game, UNLESS, the PvP is skill-based(read twitch-based to a great degree). If this is the reality, Joe has an opportunity to prove his gaming skills and build a reputation as a mighty warrior. The likelihood of this is not very high, however. In my opinion, computer games are not yet at a level where natural ability and intellect greatly change the outcome of a PvP fight. I believe that in most fights, the more experienced player prevails. This yet again, puts Joe Average at the bottom of the pecking order.
In order for a FFA PvP title to be successful by my doctrine, then, is to make the game fun, meaningful and immersive for the casual players, while keeping in the entertainment value for the hardcore gamers as well, thus ensuring the PvP credibility of the title and making the casual players feel better about their less dramatic accomplishments.
This is a hell of a job for any developer and I think were still years away from seeing a new, truly excellent FFA PvP title emerge. I'm hoping Jumpgate Evolved could be a title that would point future titles in the right direction.
Herro, in general I agree with most of your points. But I'd like to give you a little food for thought about this statement:
'Griefing someone for no reason, which I define as "killing someone who has absolutely zero chance of defending themselves" just to be a d*ck and kill them is childish.'
While your average MMo player is 28 years old, that means for every 40-somethng you get also a pre-teen or tweenie. In other words, a CHILD. So the greifing you decribe is going to happen.
Heck, if I was a 10-year-old today I'd probably do it. Just food for thought.
I like the idea of FFA PvP. I believe that having your area effect spells harm your own team mates is logical. This would limit the use of aoe abilities and spells. To bad the only way you will get this type of tactics is if you have an FFA PvP game. This can not exist in a game like WoW do to same faction griefers.
I am tired of the same moronic mechanics. Here is a fireball. This fireball explodes on impact and hurts everyone in a 300 yard radius. If you friends are in that 300 yard radius, well, they dont get hurt, but everyone else does. This is a moronic mechanic :)
I believe FFA PvP could be done in a way that can work. I belive FFA PVP could open the door to more logical game mechanics. Yes, it would be hard to implement.
I am with you all the way there buddy, but I gotta stick up for some of the griefers!
You are 100% right, but when im going from point A to point B and I happen upon some random fool, vulnerable to being ganked, I just cant help myself. Am I insecure? no. Am I weak to temptations? uh.. yeah, probably... haha. Being 28 with a real life, real job, real GF, etc., I don't go out ganking people to better myself, I do it because it makes me giggle when i accidentally come upon the opportunity to totally f*ck with some n00b. Sorry, I am weak... and probably high.... and possibly had a couple beers.
Let me get to the point: you are right with the intended nature of FFA PVP, and if rules were in place to allow the guild v guild wars without, I really wouldn't care. But as long as I play MMOs drunk and high, I can't control myself not to gank my lessers. Sorry, but it makes me laugh........
You know there is a modern MMO trying to implement what you speak of. Darkfall online, hopefully it is not vaporware.
Again taking EvE as an example, I like the way they did things. First of all, one should never feel totally secure - even in high-sec you can shoot someone - with consequences. And these consequences work very well. Firstly, you lose your ship and secondly youre security rating drops. You can become an outlaw by ganking, not beeing allowed into the high security-zones. All the while it is totally free for all in 0-sec. Its not perfect, whats perfect anyway, cant fit everybody all the time.
Did I mention, that I still want all of this in a fantasygame? :-)
Oh, I forgot. great post - again! Thanks.
I thought this was a good article. I read it once but plan to come back to re-read to make sure it all soaked in. About noob killing- I covered that in my blog I just posted. Sometimes you might kill them for roleplaying purposes or to start a big war when your Guild decides to lockdown an asset. So if I follow this blog, you see to condemn this behavior. But I 100% support it.
I think there are "logical" ways to arrive at a system that caters more to FFA PVP playstyle though while stile allowing others to do their own thing.
But ultimately, I'd be keen on seeing more true sandbox titles like Second Life where gamers can create their own mini-MMOs
BoA nice try at a Darkfall bump, but Darkfall is not the game that is impementing what I speak of.
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