If I Had a Virtual Hammer

If I built an MMORPG...

Author: grimfall

I like PVP but hate PK, but sometimes you just want to kill some players if they are irritating, wich you usually cant because of some pvp rules ex. flyff where you get red and then evrybody just come running trying to kill you, and ofcause they will. So I dont see the meaning of PK eithere and why players like it :s can somebody explain?

Apparently my experience with playing pen and paper RPG's is different from yours, because my friends and I have many times had our characters fight each other. For us it was fun, not out of anger or anything.

I personally always feel like something is missing when I play an MMORPG that doesn't have PVP. I've been playing MMORPG's since I was 12, starting with Ultima Online the Second Age. Even though getting randomly ganked and then having your corpse stripped of everything on it was often very frustrating, I found that the felucia/trammel split dealt a major blow to the game.

When I play MMORPG's I always am a roleplayer and am not usually particularly aggressive. That said, I don't like it when people are only nice to each other because they have to be. I feel that it interferes with one's ability to roleplay when the game forces everyone to behave civilly. In Everquest I played on Rallos Zek (the PVP server). This allowed for wonderful (although unfortunately very rare) events like the time a druid was trying to keep people from indiscriminately slaughtering the  wildlife outside Rivervale. If he had to just say "don't kill the animals" it would have limited his ability to Roleplay his role of defender of nature.

Likewise, on one of the racewar PVP servers I was in a guild called faydwer alliance whose aim was to unite the waring factions of Faydwer to stand united against the evil races. This was an exciting project because we had to try to convince people to not fight each other when they actually could kill each other.

This highlights what I like most about having the ability to fight other players. I like that it allows for a true sense of morality. One really has to choose to be good, because there is the chance to be bad. Back in everquest when you could loot other people's corpses, there was always the temptation to kill someone who had awesome gear and steal some of it. I had to fight the temptation though, and remain true to my character's role. So for example, if I was a wandering healer and came across a wounded warrior with expensive gear, I could choose whether to finish him off and get rich, or heal him and remain poor. To be a good person and true to my archetype or "wandering healer" I had to help him. Such moral battles are eliminated when there is no possibility of combat.

Likewise, there actually were people who would hunt down griefers and kill them. There were whole guilds that were devoted to that ideal. Of course there were always more griefers and PK guilds than could be controlled, but it was fun to have a moral battle to wage, even if it was a losing one.

I, of course, completely understand that most people don't share this viewpoint, and I am not trying to pretend that having the ability to PVP makes people roleplay. Compare the amount of roleplaying in an RPPVP server to that in a normal RP server, and it will be obvious that RPPVP servers have less. That said, for some people PVP opens up an important new dimension to a game. I hope this helped you understand this point of view, at least a bit, and that you relise that not everyone uses PVP to indulge their antisocial whims.

Same goes for me.  PvP is good but PK is not.  PK ruined the game experience.  I wouldn't mind being PKed by someone within my level range since I can at least try to fight back but when high level (10+ lvl higher than you) PK you, then it's no fun.  PvP however is best way to challenge yourself with your permission not being forced upon in PK.  The game don't need PK system to have fun.

The big difference between tabletop RPGs and MMO RPGs is that the former is played by friends while the latter is played by strangers.  When players agree to have fun together, they work out how they're going to play.  Everyone is interested in everyone having fun.  That includes PvE, PvP, and everything else besides.

Griefing takes place when somebody doesn't care if the other guy is having fun.  That's unlikely between friends, but it's common enough among strangers.  Especially immature strangers.  An immature player isn't even aware that the other player has their own agenda.  They have no notion of respecting it, let alone desiring it for the other player.

The game designs themselves contribute to the problem.  Players are told to gain for themselves by every system in the game.  Is it any wonder that the games attract people who are self-centered enough to commit random acts of grief?

On a completely different note, that episode with the druid defending nature suggests to me that a game could permit players to lobby for having rule changes made for their character so that they can roleplay a certain way.

The druid tells the developers "If I see someone kill an animal, I want to be able to attack them."  The developers would consider that fair.  They put that in.  They also put in a character modification that says the druid cannot attack animals and that he is obligated to heal injured animals.

That's completely impractical, but if it could be implemented, it would make for some interesting possibilities.  Perhaps if implemented as standard character behavior options.  That is, selecting "Animal Lover" inducing certain character behavior.  You wouldn't create a Druid-class character.  You'd select a roleplaying structure for it, which would grant the appropriate skills and abilities.

In addition to the above comments, you missed one importent factor.

You had it right with you and your friends taking on dragons and other worldy dangers. However, you and your friends never came across another group of RPG players in your world. If you would have, and both had similar goals, the chances you compete is significantly increased.

What an MMO did was open those groups of tabletop players, to thousands of other small groups with similar goals. To that end, may enjoy the competition and PvP thrives.

That is what I feel is part of the reason.

Why?  Because, for the most part, PvE in MMOs has been horrible.  The slow, boring game play and predictable mob AI get old pretty quick.  If youre looking for a challenge or a thrill, PvP is really the only option.

Still, I do think that we will eventually see a PvE MMO that does things right.   

I like FACTION vs FACTION player fighting.Can you still get ganked ? Sure but i play games that let me fight when I want..and not fight when I don't.With FaACTIONS..you are part of something larger than yourself..or a guild.

  I might offer some interesting points to this matter.  RPG stands for role playing game, yes?  Well, PvP encourages some of the best role playing experiences ever found.  In fact...PvP introduces the only 'living' element to found in any MMO I've seen produced.  Everything else in essentially meaningless, scripted, drivel that does not satisfy the players need to exist and ACT in a meaningful way to the world in which they reside.

I have to agree. To me, RPG is a role playing game, not a PVP game.

I will say, that many games have improved their PVP and it's much more appealing now. I remember my first experience with PKing in UO, it made me think...oh ya, this is why I wanna play...to work for something then lose it so fast to a complete jerk.

I absolutely HATE PK. PvP I have come to tolerate and even enjoy in certain situations.

But no, I don't think PvP belongs in an RPG. It fits in an RvR type game, but not in an RPG.

 Countless FPS games come out every month. We certainly don't need more. Nor do we need more blends. I mean seriously...we already have MMORPG, How long do we want the title? MMORPGFPSRVR maybe? Might be time to back track a bit, and return to honest to goodness role playing.

Personally, I would love to see a true RPG game, one where the story and the gameplay is more true to tabletop ideals.

its a really bad analogy since there are no other groups of players wandering around your pen and paper rpg world.  so really pen and paper rpgers dont have the option.  Even as the gm though i enjoyed "fighting" the players, even if i couldnt kill them (cause then the games over :)), but as far as policing goes i pull my 70 now and then and patrol up and down stranglethorn looking for gankers :) 

The vast majority of  MMO players these days do not come from a pen-and-paper RPG background.  They grew up playing video games where the whole point is to dominate other players.  So of course they bring that mindset into the MMO world.

Of course, other gamers grew up preferring single-player RPGs, and those people often adopt a solo-only mindset in MMOs.

It's all a matter of conditioning, I suppose.  One's preferences are shaped by things in the past that have brought the most enjoyment.

I try to be a non-griefing PvP player, in that when I engage in PvP I vastly prefer even matches. Or as close to even as you can get in an RPG setting compared to a FPS/figher-game setting, which I think is the biggest problem.... back to that in a moment. In WoW, for instance, this means the battlegrounds, where the brackets mean that you can at least get a semblance of a fair fight.

The idea of a "fair fight" is the ultimate problem with RPG (at least computer RPG) PvP, in my opinion. There's so many different ways this breaks down in MMORPGs it becomes practically impossible to track: many vs. few, high-level vs. low-level, fantastic gear vs. shoddy gear, good builds vs. bad builds, and probably other factors I'm not considering. The issue isn't "am I playing a role" but rather the mechanics of RPGs: levels, skills, lewt, and so forth. You just can't take all these possible points of disparity and get a game like chess or poker or even Mortal Kombat out of it.

I also think you need to be specific about what you consider "griefing" and how you'd expect people to "police themselves." 

Thanks for all your responses, a couple of points.

The big difference between tabletop RPGs and MMO RPGs is that the former is played by friends while the latter is played by strangers.

I disagree with this 100%.  The vast majority of interaction in a MMORPG is done between strangers, who may later become friends.  Taking your table top gaming friends into one game a starting a guild is by far the exception to the rule.

its a really bad analogy since there are no other groups of players wandering around your pen and paper rpg world.

It wasn't an analogy, it was an analysis of the evelution of the phenomenom,  but your comparison is still incorrect.  In PnP you have one player, the DM, controlling all sorts of characters, and then a group of players running typically a group of single characters.  The DM can pit his characters against the players characters, and in fact does all the time.  That would be PVP.

I also think you need to be specific about what you consider "griefing" and how you'd expect people to "police themselves." 

'Griefing' would be initiating activities that interfere with other's enjoyment of the game.  'Policing themselves' would be counter-griefing the griefers so severely that the activity is stopped. Just like throwing someone in prison or the electric chair is 'griefing' them.

If you would have, and both had similar goals, the chances you compete is significantly increased.

Today when two companies seek to take over a third, one doesn't letter bomb the offices of the others.  There's other ways to compete than to kill someone.

I disagree with this 100%.  The vast majority of interaction in a MMORPG is done between strangers, who may later become friends.  Taking your table top gaming friends into one game a starting a guild is by far the exception to the rule.

It doesn't sound like you're disagreeing – you're both saying that you're far more likely to know the people that you encounter in a tabletop game than you are in an MMO, right? Given that, PvP in a tabletop setting will probably be friendlier than in an MMO. In a tabletop game, if Steve's cyborg kills off my datamage he's liable to say “Sorry guy” and buy me a beer later. On an MMO there's no such connection. Often there isn't any communication – in WoW, for example, I can't actually talk to the other team's players except using rudimentary /emotes. Is the other guy looking for a fight, but he just doesn't want to fight me? Is he trying to get to a quest and doesn't want to be bothered? Is he running towards his friends – who are running his direction as well, so they can turn then jump me? No idea, and that's a problem you'll rarely get in a tabletop game.

... granted, I also think [url=http://sc.tri-bit.com/John_Gabriel's_Greater_Internet_Fuckwad_Theory]Gabe's Internet F***wad Theory[/url] applies.

As an aside, DM PvP – I view the game master in a tabletop game as (preferably) a very sophisticated AI, capable of social responses and nuances. Me attacking the GM's NPC flunkies is PvE. Me attacking another player's character is PvP.

Stepping back for a moment: Game designers include PvP in MMOs for several reasons. I think the biggest is that it is cheap content that has a lot more sophistication and variety than PvE content, particularly when you reach the “end game.” Once you've maxed out your character and get tired of 'the raid – do whatever with big drop – next raid – lather, rinse, repeat' cycle, you can keep paying your subscription fees while engaging in capture-the-flag, one bout being quite different from the next. Game designers also include it because some people really want it. They want it for a variety of reasons – the challenge offered by playing against other people being the big positive one, the desire to be a bully the big negative one. Again, the problem with MMORPGs unlike other “PvP” games (poker, chess, rugby, Mortal Kombat) is how many inequalities crop up.

'Griefing' would be initiating activities that interfere with other's enjoyment of the game.  'Policing themselves' would be counter-griefing the griefers so severely that the activity is stopped. Just like throwing someone in prison or the electric chair is 'griefing' them.

By that definition of griefing then, griefing's “enabled” in strictly PvE games as well. In City of Heroes a favorite past time for some misanthropes was to teleport teammates into lethal situations (the developers put tools in to help prevent that later). People would sometimes aggro a whole mission map, bring all the bad guys down on their team mates, then leave the mission. Etc., etc.

I think it's a perfectly fine definition, mind you, just one that isn't limited to PvP. It's also dependent on what the potential “griefee” wants at the time – sometimes I may get a thrill out of a bidding war on the auction house, sometimes you constantly raising the price by two shillings every 3 seconds is just asinine “griefing.”

The reason people don't often self-police is because they're typically not given the tools to do so. As a Horde player in WoW, for example, I cannot attack other Horde players outside of /duels. Apart from harsh language, condemnation, and shunning, I can't do anything about a level 70 Orc hunter who keeps ganking people in Ashenvale (or whatever). I think developers are reluctant to give people such tools because those tools could, in turn, be abused.

a Horde player in WoW, for example, I cannot attack other Horde players outside of /duels. Apart from harsh language, condemnation, and shunning, I can't do anything about a level 70 Orc hunter who keeps ganking people in Ashenvale (or whatever).

But the 2000 Alliance players on that server certainly can and typically don't.

PVP may not be inherient in RPGs but I believe that it is inherient in Video Games. Therefore I deduce that PVP has found its way into MMOs due to them also being Video Games

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