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PvE and PvP

PvE players (like me)want to have fun with our character. I am not interested in shoot-em-up "Im better than you" games for 13 yr old videogame artists. Want to add a couple games to my WOW sub. But all are like a government..PvP get the best perks!

Author: garry

PvE and PvP

Posted by garry Saturday August 2 2008 at 5:16PM
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I am a 62 yr old gamer (since 1976). Former game designer for TSR and Pacesetter games. Hired because I was a designer who would rather play a game than run it as a GM. I simply know what is fun in a game from experience.

As a PvE player i want to have a character that gets to do things and get stuff for the fun and relaxation. Found to my surprise that the button pushing finger artists of videogames want to fight others and beat them "i'm better than you!". Not NPC opponents but other guys, right off the playground. Bullies in the gaming world must have a blast with PvP (unless they lose) cause I see their statements on chat regularly.

I don't have a single objection to the PvP experts having their fun at each others expense. That is what   gaming is all about, having fun in your own way. But where I am having problems is that the game designers and their companies seem to have the highest regard for those PvP'ers. They get the greatest rewards, perks and stuff. Catering to their ego's is a high priority for most of the MMO games I see.

I am a long time player of WOW along with several of my gaming friends. We have enjoyed the game a lot and still play almost daily. However I have been checking out the various games in order to add one or two to my WoW sub for variety. Unfortunately all of them I have seen so far have bent over backwards to placate and support the PvP players, in most cases guaranteeing that the best play and perks and "stuff" will be theirs and not available to us lowly PvE players. Makes you feel like we are getting the leftovers and only allowed in to help pay subs for the glorious PVP!

Sorry if that sounds a little over the top but it is extremely frustrating (yes, even in WOW). It doesn't help when I read some of the flaming comments someone like myself gets (and will probably get here) when we speak up. The companies that produce MMO's are not stupid, there must be a reason they cater so much to the PvP player. Perhaps there are more of them but frankly, I doubt it. Don't know the statistics on this or the problem of end play for the companies.

I do not suggest reducing or downplaying the PvP content. There should be as much PvP content in any game as possible. I hope all PvP players have a great time and fun, cause that's why we play.  Also I am aware of the constraints necessary from the basic computer architecture as well as the cost effectiveness of adding content. The fact is that you can't please everybody but it is frustrating to be on the losing end of that argument.

Companies can object and tell us how they have plenty of wonderful PvE content but I simply ask them to check out their own advertising and updates/expansions. Then give an honest appraisal of where they are targeting their content. I've checked out game after game here on MMORPG and have yet to find one of the 5 or 6 games I am considering adding to my comp that doesn't hawk the same wares. Our PVP is great, we don't force you into groups but...., abilities and equipment you can achieve thru our PvP is not available to...well, you have all read the statements.

Solution? Not one readily available. Companies go where they think the money is, period. If PvP is the wave then thats the final answer. Only say that  if PvP is that important in your game then I probably won't bother to buy it or sub. At this point I have tried and finally dumped 6 MMO games. I like WOW a lot although it does the same as the others, PvP gets the first and best.

If someone sends me an email and offers me the job of game advisor for PvE I will deliver a number of ideas for improving and helping those players with computer friendly (and easy) suggestions. (Yeah I know...fat chance). Companies have already decided on their course of action . Easy combat like WoW is evidently anathema (although about 11 million paying subscribers might say different). Realistinc, FPS like, video combat seems the wave of the future. I have dealt with realistic things all my life, usually tiresome, frustrating and mostly resembling work. I don't want to work, I want to play and have fun.

Not normally a blog writer but I was checking through the games here on MMORPG for possible new ones to get and got a little frustrated, so I thought I would throw this out. Kinda hope I can get some feedback from PvP players (without the flaming and expletives please...those I just shrug off and ignore). I admit i was stereotyping PvP players as 13 yr old x-box finger artists and I honestly apologize. Please understand that frustration is a 'realistic' fact and I can't say I like it either.

thanks for reading.......................garry


Nate_12 writes:

Well its understandable you feel your being left behind. PvP for me is a higher  level of entertainment. PvE is fun dont get me wrong but once you have done the same encounter it starts to get boring where as PvP you dont get that as soon. True classes play a certain way and jumping into the same fight will eventualy happen but it can easily change and thats what makes me love it. It certainly can be fustrating at times but to be better you need a challenge think about it. As for new games i see a succesful game to be both PvP and PvE so intigrated and clean flowing that they seem the same now in my opinion only one game so far seems to truly offering that Warhammer Online but its not out yet and if Mythic stays true to what they've showed and said i think it will be more than fun for both of us. So good like finding the next game.

Sat Aug 02 2008 7:08PM Report
PrinnySquad writes:

I hate PvP as much as the next person who isn't a total jerk, but taking into account you like WoW, there are lots of WoW-esque options.

What about Everquest 2, Lord of the Rings, or Vanguard? I mean Lotro is almost a direct clone of WoW except with Gandalf. I don't think PvP is a big factor in any of those games. They also have traditional real-time-refresh-based MMORPG combat like WoW.

Sat Aug 02 2008 7:56PM Report
Azmaria writes:

Garry, if you're looking for a PvE centric game, check out Vanguard.  The only PvP is 1) on the single PvP FFA server or 2) in duels that can be denied.  As far as I've seen, there is no benefit to PvP other than enjoyment for the people who enjoy that style of play.

Sat Aug 02 2008 8:19PM Report
Seiren writes:

Nice blog. Like you I prefer PvE over PvP and agree with you when you say PvE players are at the end of the argument. There is only one game, Ryzom, which I can say offers a good balanced PvE content where uber gear is made by the players themselves and not found through PvM or PvP. The game has an incredible crafting system that is totally dependent on PvE. PvP is optional, which means if you want to PvP you flag-up. I suggest you keep an eye out for Ryzom, the servers are expected to be open to the public soon and the new site will be available within the next couple of days.

Sat Aug 02 2008 8:44PM Report
toddze writes:

Garry I completely agree, I look at the upcoming list of MMORPG's coming out, and I get discouraged as I see that all are geared for PvP with PvE on the backburner. This would be fine if I liked PvP in my MMORPG's, but I am a big PvE fan. I get my PvP from games like Call of Duty and Soul Caliber IV online.

I have always felt that PvP does not belong in MMORPG's, at least not the driving force of the game. There are exceptions to this. For example Darkfall, that game is geared for the PvPers and advertised as so. The problem comes when a game company tries to stand on the fence with one foot in PvP and the other in PvE. The problem here is: it is a nightmare to get classes balanced, if that is even achievable. It seems that the devs spend all their resources trying to patch PvP that PvEers get the scraps or left out completely.

It seems that the mass market wants PvP based MMO’s so that’s what were getting. Not much we can do about it, but smile and go on. Maybe one day we will get a new PvE based MMO, at least I have hopes of one. My hope comes from Square Enix. They are making a new MMO but have not released any info on it. They are the makers of the Final Fantasy games and the MMO FFXI, so I have faith that they will release a PvE based MMO game. If it turns out to be a PvP based game, well I will most likely stop playing MMO,s all together because there are different genre of games (shooters, fighters, etc) that have a much higher quality of PvP.

Sat Aug 02 2008 8:46PM Report
fansede writes:

Garry you carebear!

Just kidding. But get ready for those comments from those self proclaimed veteran uber peens.  If you frustration lies in gaming rewards I hear you.  Why can't a game be designed so that the rewards are valuable for PvE and PvP?

I know there are certain aspects of playing against a computer generated foe versus another human being, but you would think the industry have figured it out yet. One that comes to mind is the Hate list. in PvE this is easily programmable to a Monsters behavior. Yet in PvP, this is a non factor. Games like WAR might take a step in the right direction. In WAR, you get a debuff if you ignore the tank,  but it doesn't seem very realistic. You should be receiving heavy punishment from a skilled warrior that you waltz by. Attack the healer at your own risk.

So the designers create gear to make a tank generate more hate for PvE situations, but this gear might as well be trash in a PvP situation.  So far the answer is create PvP gear. Like you said, PvP gear often is superior to its PvE counterparts.

On a side note, PvP in the MMO setting to me was always a sideshow. If I wanted to play Mortal Kombat, ill go to the arcade or play my console. Least I won't suffer because of lag.  I also learned that PvP was nothing more than bragging rights for the honorable players, and at its worst, griefing behaviors like corpse camping, spawn camping, kill stealing and ganking.. They all can jade anyones experience if it goes on enough.

Realm vs Realm changed all that for me. Now I was fighting others for a cause. I pray to the gaming gods Mythic delivers in Warhammer Online.  If I take down an enemy my realm gets a little boost. Do enough for my realm and I can get the real prizes from the enemies own treasure trove.

Sat Aug 02 2008 9:39PM Report
ReVeaL7 writes:

I indeed sympathized with your write up Mr. garry.  Personally myself I love both PvP & PvE MMORPGs quite a bit.   I have ran large Guilds & Alliances on both ends of the spectrum and  have done  extremely well on both ends of the spectrum.  I do think that game developers should implement a few of your suggestions though.   I hope the right people indeed read your blog.  Maybe it will spark the ideas for the future of PvE.

I also tried to put myself into a mind state of a 62yr old.  How will I feel about gaming at that age.  What will my views be: What type games honestly I will want to play: and how will I feel concerning certain matters of PvE & PvP. 

All I can say is the end result is.  Interesting

"Rubs Goatee".......... ReVeaL





Sun Aug 03 2008 1:04AM Report
t0nyd writes:

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, there isnt a game that fills the PvP niche yet? Pretty much every MMORPG to date exists to placate the PvE crowd

Everquest, Everquest 2, WoW, LotR, CoH, CoV, Vanguard, FFXI

As a PvPer, what games do I have...

Guildwars, which is instanced PvP. This is not really an mmorpg. Age of Conan? Hell, this game is far more PvE than PvP oriented. Dark Age of Camelot. We have one real PvP game. One...

Sun Aug 03 2008 1:10AM Report
t0nyd writes:

To quote you " PvP gets the best perks "

Name a game where PvP gets the best perks. In a majority of these games, you must PvE to get the best equipment. I dont want to PvE for hours to get equipment. I dont enjoy it. You enjoy it. So your fine with your 20 man raids etc.

In games like WoW, PvE content will always exceed PvP content. If you choose not to PvP, than you dont need PvP gear. If you dont need PvP gear, than wtf are you even talking about. In PvE you get the best PvE gear right? Yup....

Sun Aug 03 2008 1:16AM Report
Vladalf writes:

Garry I completely agree with you. In my oppinion many players get bored of pve because developers haven't made an mmorpg yet that can captivate every player with it's story, quests, AI, etc. They invest much into PVP because in a pvp game, story can be made even by it's players. Hatred forms between the factions, groups are made, villages are pilaged, etc. Things like that haven't yet been made at pve. If hardware wil get better in the following years probably we will see evolving mmorpg worlds, better AI, living citys, etc. I hope I'll see more posts from you. Take care!



Sun Aug 03 2008 6:16AM Report
daelnor writes:

I disagree with you.  I really don't know any games that have a decent sub base off the top of my head that cater to pvp over pve.  The latest "pvp" release is AOC, which was missing the promised pvp content.

I was a pen and paper dnd guy for years.  I eventually moved on with life, and left my gaming group behind, which effectively ended my pen and paper days.

Playing mmo's I have yet to really have that epic feeling you get from the table top experience, except in one game.

That was DAOC, where in RvR (yes, pvp) You could actually gain that epic feel again with the keep seiges, 1v1 fights, etc.  You could make a name for yourself and your guild with something other than being the first guild to complete a high end raid.

After several generations of pve games out, people are getting tired of the same old cut and dry pve content.  They are looking for that excitement, that feel of adventure.  PvE does not offer that anymore for many.

Until pve gets things like hands on gm world events that actually impact the game world (and it is implemented well) to give more of a tabletop feel, I think you will continue to see the trend towards pvp of some sort to market games.

Of course, with that said, pretty much every game that has touted pvp to the masses as its main draw has somehow managed to fail miserably in that department and instead delivered tons of pve content.

I am not calling you a carebear, but I do not agree with you whatsoever.

Sun Aug 03 2008 8:33AM Report
craynlon writes:

for me the biggest mistake developers do today is trying both pvp and pve in one mmorpg.
im not saying it cant be done, im not saying fans would scream if one aspect is left out im just saying its incredible hard and imho we would see better games if 100% of the energy is put into one aspect only.

for me pvp is like a sports match. if a developer wants to make a good soccer game he will fokus on implementing good rules, realistic ball controll and all that

for me pve is like a movie. if a developer does it right it has dramaturgy, a compelling story, rich lore and plot twists.

now imagine the pressure the producer of a mmorpg is under to develope 100th of hours of entertainment that pleases both sports fans and movie goers in just one game.

so far i have seen mostly pve games with pvp additions but with war on the horizont we will have the opportunity to watch an almost 80% pvp game so we will see how this turns out.

Sun Aug 03 2008 9:52AM Report
craynlon writes:


i also firmly believe that pvp ends up beeing cheaper for the developer. they have to programm the ruleset once, balance it out and the content will be generated by the players fighting each others. it worked great in lineage1/2 where the pve is a simple grind on spawning mobs but the clan vs clan or individual pvp filled gigabytes of forum posts and so far 4+ years of ingame (drama)

a pve game (unless trading/crafting playes a huge part) will need updates and new content constantly. aoc for example is a great pve expirience but it looses the hardcore crowed alreaddy that burned thrue the content within weeks after release.

Sun Aug 03 2008 10:00AM Report
kesleri writes:

You should really try RuneScape, they have a very big amount of content for PvE players. PvP still receives regular updates.

About 5 or 6 Years of weekly - bi-weekly updates. Just imagine how much content does RuneScape really have.

Sun Aug 03 2008 12:38PM Report
midknyghte writes:

I am completely in agreement here there a nunmber of good solid posts stating exactly what I have been feeling.


WoW has completely cheapened the PVE experience with the way it rewards PVP.  I went back at teh beginning of teh year after a 6 month break, and within 8 weeks i was better geared than many in my guild who had been grinding out PVE content.  With WoW, for most classes not all, the PVP gear outshines the tier 5 gear.  Only with T6 do you start to bypass what you can gain through grinding a few weeks in battlegrounds, and it takes months to accomplish if you are looking to gear up all those individuals in PVE gear.


I have been thinking and saying the same things Carynlon has posted here as well.  If the developers would choose which side of the fence they wanted to work on, there woud be some phnomenal games out right now.  However, they are all busy wondering how they can compete with WoW ( and failing ot do so) while gimping both sides of the field, both PVE and PVP.  Cray is also correct with how PVP is cheaper, it takes less time to develop a PVP setting, less (if any) mobs, all you do is build a map.  Less time building content means less cash paid to devs and artists, and there you are.


MMO gaming is in a sad shape right now, imo.  Everyone is seeking ways to take bites out of WoWs cash crop instead of just building a good solid game.  Mediocrity has become the rule.

Sun Aug 03 2008 1:57PM Report
garry writes:

Guys and or Gals,

I was first, completely surprised at the numerous responses to my blog. Next, I was smiling as I got good solid comment and most especially, recomendations. Even those who disagreed with me were courteous and had solid points which I read with interest.

Special thanks to seiren, azmaria and kesleri for the recomendations about Ryzom, Vanguard and Runescape. I will check them out shortly after I finish this response. And thanks to you all for the replies (Not sure what a carebear is but it doesn't sound too bad, eh?)

It is certainly true that I don't enter a game with the same intensity as I get when rooting for my favorite football team (Roll Tide!). I simply want to relax and have some fun. One of the guys made a true statement when he mentioned his approach to PvP and I see again that I was a little biased against PvP players. I want to correct that by saying that individuals loving PvP play have just as much right as me, period. Also I am afraid that my desire for more equality in a game may be based a little on things like greed and keeping up with the Joneses.(Wince!). I guess a little jealousy is thrown in as well. Just trying to be honest here.

As an aside, I am still surprised a little at the vehemence shown against WoW. If a lot of people dislike the WoW play/art/setup etc.. then I presume they don't play it any more. I have run LoTR and it is a fine game but lacked both the color and ease I found in WoW. My best friends son dropped WoW to play it and is hooked. I got a little bored and disappointed with LoTR so I stopped playing.

I notice that a number of games seem to have a different section or play mode that appeals to some while other parts are not liked. (For example WoW). I have played Wow for about a year and a half now but want more variety. That's why I am looking for a couple more games but I still intend to stay with WoW. I am watching Warhammer (Played tabletop with my gaming group in Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Gothic and have a beautiful set of miniatures, figures and spacecraft, so I'm waiting for Warhammer MMO. Why, since PvP is king so far as I can tell? They claim to allow PvE play to help alongside PvP for the game. I want to try this and will give it a run when it comes out).

Enough from me. To the comment about trying to see the mindset of a 62 yr old gamer. Well, add in that I am ex US Navy, ex steelworker and a 25 yr long haul trucker as well as an ex game designer. Mix it all up and guess what! You will eventually see, as I hope you make it to and past 62 as a gamer. You will be pleased to find that you get as much fun out of it as you did those many years past. Pleasant surprise!

Thanks again to all, I am glad I didn't start a flaming session. Any more comments or suggestions will be welcome and I will read them, and think about it.                 


Sun Aug 03 2008 3:55PM Report
Shohadaku writes:

SWG had the PVP PVE right with their initial Flagging system. You attack a faction NPC and it flags you attackable.

You could choose to never get involved with the war and stay safe with all the pve you want. You could even attack faction and let the 5 min pass and become unattackable if your not seen by faction npc or faction enemy players.

It was a system of PVE PVP that made sense. It was realistic, and didn't require a pvp server.

Also Jedi becoming seen placed them on player Bounty Hunter terminal missions where they could be hunted.

This has been the best system I have seen in any MMO to date

Sun Aug 03 2008 6:51PM Report
Meltdown writes:

Garry I can see why this has become troublesome for you. For me ever since I left Everquest when I left for college (5 years ago) I haven't been able to find a game that I am able to enjoy like I did EQ. My friends at my job during college were those hard-core Counter-Strike and Halo players. And there is nothing wrong with that, but I started playing games with them because we just talked about games at work.

So I played WoW with them for a while, AoC, a handful of free to play games and I play Team Fortress 2 and Day of Defeat Source with them as well. But it donned on me recently that I don't like those kinds of games. I never did. I just get frustrated with such constant direct competition with people. Now I just can't seem to get into any games. Maybe it's my new choice of friends who have influenced me with their mouth-foaming boom-headshot ways. Or maybe none of the recent games have the lack of PvP I really want... or maybe I just need new friends =P

Anyways I wish you best of luck!

Sun Aug 03 2008 9:23PM Report
vajuras writes:

Are you guys kidding me when I played WoW pvpers were getting slaughtered by raiders that bore uber purple gear. It's about time they catered equally to pvpers. Now, according to what my friends happily report, they are no longer required to raid for gear for pvp. They can just focus on pvp, the same way you can just focus on endless raiding repetitious content (which totally sucks for us pvpers)

Sun Aug 03 2008 10:50PM Report
Death1942 writes:

first off i'd like to say TSR!!!....your a god dude.

2nd.  great blog, really well written

now i hated pvp right from the get go.  i never really liked it and i doubt i ever will.  i too get cheesed off when the PvP players get all the decent gear and i hate it when they cause all the nerfs (there would never ever be a nerf if there wasnt PvP and people to complain). 

i'd also like to point out that although pvp is highly catered for no one is satisfied.  i've read so many threads asking about whether the pvp is good, discussions on why the pvp isnt as good as what it could be (FFA looting being an example), why pvp gets nerffed so much (Runescape) and why no developer has created a decent pvp game.

i think a healthy balance between pvp and pve is essential to any game because catering for one or the other seems to have failed

Mon Aug 04 2008 12:29AM Report
tazarconan writes:

Hey Garry and very nice post tbh.. Concerning wow if i understand well 1st of all u must be referring about the fact that  if a player starts pvp farming honour in battlegrounds and arena points in arena games can faster take decent gear compared to a guy that will try to advance in gear through pve aspects raiding karatzan 5 memebr parties in heroics gruul raids e.t.c. i agree with that pve items should be better maybe and also have some resilience points just for the case that guy would like to do some pvp also...

In the other fiel;d though..pve vs pvp i disagree..I prefer to hit smart mobs than rather fight stupid mobs ...and players as opponents are in fact mobs with smarter A.I. At least in most cases ;P..

Now , i like pve also but only in the case that the mobs are smart and the battle is tough tactical and challenging,wehich from what i seee in all mmo's wont happen...and since u have have a developer expirience here is a questiion for you and pls answer it if you can....

Lets say that a dev makes an mmorps that has many many factors example: many stats that afffect much your character  :

1)Many sattributes that really can make characterws creation and development difereent:strenght encuberance and mell dmg endurance stamina+life constitution dmg reduction to physical dmg +life ,dexterity crit chance ,e.t.c.

2)Weapon range Pike 4 meteres reach, 2 handed sword 2 meters reach longsword 1 m reach e.t.c.

3)Body coallition so one player wont be able to run through the others

4) a nice tactical combat system with many tactical choises throught the battle

the question is: Since we all see those characteristicks in many single player games like baldur's gate ,wizardry 8 temple of elemental evil,severance blade of darkness e.t.c.  why the nine hells not even one mmo rpg in the market hasnt even the half of depth and doesnt include any of those inside the games they make?

Would be the game too heavy? why? Are there technical dificulties to add such a depth in an mmorpg? Would be the lagg too heavy in order to transmit through the server all these many infos? I just had always that question adn since u r a former dev pls if u can answer that i d be delighted mate and thnks for the nice post u made anwy...

Mon Aug 04 2008 5:55AM Report
Psymyn writes:

First off i love how you ended it all with the descriptive populace of PvP players as "13 yr. old x-box finger artists." LMAO!!

 And well i really can say a whole lot on this subject, i played WoW for 2yrs. and after the expansion came out i just got bored, sure there was new content ect. ect. but the fact was is that they literally took away being able to solo. It seemed like every mission for 60-80 was strictly group raid quests, and as that is a seperate subject, it still played a key role in the aspect of PvE. So as a casual player i just wasnt looking for the hassle of waiting hrs. on end to put together a good grp to quest with, especially since i was also in search of a new guild.  So honestly i left WoW because of the menotinous grind fest it started feeling like even before the expansion, so as for the expansion it self i felt like i got dumped into a "new" looking world with "new" stuffs to be had, as well as not so "new" feeling quests. Instant turn off, i uninstalled, and thats when i turned to EVE.

 Ah EVE the loving emerse world of inter-stellar space exploration! Loved it, and loved my faction, great guys i met right out of the tutorial! From the start they were teaching me everything, this is what being in a "guild" always meant, done Greece style. Boy i do miss em, but let me tell ya it got old because it turned into a waiting game no matter how you looked at it, but the weight of the "wait" vs articulate detail around every corner of the game won my vote to call it one hell of an MMO, unfortunatly it wasnt enough to keep my attention. But for now im actually considering jumping back into it. The new expansions out, and i cant tell you how much i wish to be there when the next one comes out for those of you whom know what the hype is all about. SO as for EVE, if you love Sci-fi fantasy, and want PvE vs. more PvP, and if you can handle the way the skill system works, than this a great game to try!

 There are so many more ive given a shot at, some piss poor, some decent, none have yet to really make me drop a duece and shout, "ITS ABOUT FREAKING TIME!!" But with your point being PvE over PvP, i have to agree that the two should be as equal as black rights vs. white rights. I think its absolute crap, as well as a circle jerking grind house that with PvP you can reward yourself to better PvP enhancing gear vs. PvE where you take hrs on end traveling deeper and deeper within the darkest part of a high lvl raid dungeon (not just once) only to come back and get a few parts of gear that is technically enhaced for PvE. I think both ends should have different gear you can find that are as generally equal gear if they were to be tested against eachother, for example: a PvPer has a full set of "PvP" gear, and the PvEer has miscillaneous gear that is just as good as rewarded PvP gear, if they were to go head to head. Infact somthing thats a "reward" vs. Somthing that is a very very rare drop, its seems more deemable as  an artifact that it infact should be better than anything anyones every known. So all in all,  in WoW's case, you have artifact archetype items that are very rarely found, vs. gear of epic quality thats better? and can be had at simply grinding to a certain number of kills.. generally speaking.

 So in a not so summed up understanding, I FEEL YA MAN!

Mon Aug 04 2008 10:01AM Report
garry writes:

Hey folks, just got back to this from a real world interaction with a group called the IRS. Believe me they know nothing about no fun at all.

Anyway, read the latest submissions and got even more to think about. Having been a game designer I saw the technical and business difficulties of a game company, including the problems which were made even more difficult because of some ego's being involved.

On the idea of increased stats being used for the PC, well, most MMO's seem to use a basic set of stats and usually a group of assorted stats that are influenced by the basics stats. Complicated systems are not difficult for a computer to do incredibly fast but the results of micrsecond calculations have then to be presented in real time as animations. In WOW for example the computer knows in a fraction of a second the result of a strike or action, and can transmit the data to another program in...well, microseconds. However, another program must then initiate the animation which takes a second or two or more, forever in computer time. These two components alone would create a framework that your game must follow to be playable.

I suspect that technical difficulties also occur in that computers out there in the world have different processor speeds and graphics engines and the game MUST be able to accomodate the range of the largest number possible. The company HAS to make a profit or it goes under, fair has nothing to do with it.

In reference to another comment which hit home to me. I love solo play. Mabey thats why I enjoy PvE so much. I want to be the 'hero' and do the great feats, smash the uber-monster, get the best glittering treasure (you know monkeys love to play with shiny stuff). I also love to explore around new areas and find surprises and mabey rare things, even if they don't last that long. In other words I am playing for myself. I have four friends who play with me in a WOW guild (Bounty Hunters). Two in Seattle, Wa and two here in Birmingham, Al. We are PvE only and our guild is basically a closed guild with our alts. We all play solo but join together for some missions and help each other out with skills and stuff.  I think it boils down to wanting a better chance for the rare and epic gear than is available to PvE play.

On a side note, the mention of 'nerfs' is uncomfortably true. WOW has definitely nerfed drops of treasure and items across the level and said nothing, probably needing to balance the economy, under the table, as it were.

I am still satisfied with WOW and intend to play (and pay) with them for the forseeable future. They have some of the most beautiful and colorful art in the game. Also looking forward to the expansion although the flying mounts problem seems directly connected the the basic game computer architecture. Original design engine may not be able to supprot flight mode in the basic world without a massive reprogram. Considering the size of the "world' this may be a financial problem more than anything else. Don't want to 'piss off' 10+ million subscribers for a redo.

Already pre-ordered the Warhammer game which supposedly starts in September. I know it is primarily directed to PvP but one statement gives me hope. It was stated that PvE (solo) play was fully supported and would directly contribute to the PvP factions in the game. Now there is an idea that really attracts me. I think it would be great if the monsters and opponents I defeat and loot would also contribute to whichever race, faction etc... I happen to support. I got my fingers crossed that this will be true and I am looking forward to this.

Also, I played EVE for over a year but it is designed, single-mindedly, for PvP. Everything else is secondary and you must be pretty nimble fingered and fast with the mouse in arcade like combat. Definitely not my cup of tea. Was a member of a corp but it seemed a spotty and erratic operation. Visually EVE is the most stunning game Ive seen. Absolutely superior to most any I know about. Puts SWG to shame I'm afraid.

Finally I am awaiting the DC Superheroes game. I played CoH for two years and for the early levels it was great. But, inexorably, you were forced into groups. Your fun was based on the abilities and personalities of others. Solo play was an erratic and dangerous activity, even limiting exploration. Death penalties were most obvious and frustrating for anyone playing solo. Hope that the DC game is different.

Thanks to anyone reading and replying to this post. Enjoyed hearing the different views and in the words of Fraser, "I'm Listening!"

Mon Aug 11 2008 2:02PM Report writes:
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