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Spouse Aggro!

I blog at www.spouseaggro.com, write for www.ablegamers.com, run www.mmovoices.ning.com and post all over the net. HOWDY!

Author: beauturkey

Sorry, Darkfall is not "sandbox."

Posted by beauturkey Monday June 22 2009 at 10:23PM
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I guess I should just learn to let things go, but I am bad at it.

One of my pet peeves is not only over-using but allowing certain terms to become part of your vocabulary without actually defining what those words mean. For example, the word "n***er" of "f*g." Just words, yes, but define them and how you use them and understand their possible effects on someone besides your group of buddies.

Now, not to be overly dramatic, and I am in no way comparing using hip Interweb lingo to using racist and homophobic terms, but I am connecting the two in their unoriginality and misuse.

So, the point of the blog: "sandbox." A good deal of the gaming media and multiple spheres (blogs/podcasts) as well as players love to use the terms "hardcore" and "sandbox", as though they are some kind of assurance of either deep challenge or fascinating complexity. I will not get to hardcore on this post, but I have visited that one many times already.

But with sandbox, I am always entertained by players who seem to think that a game that allows many choices is somehow a "sandbox."

"Sandbox" is a good term only to describe something with very limited choices. A box of a material that requires a liquid to hold shape is not something that lends to unlimited imaginings, unless the player is a 5 year old. Yes, I understand the metaphor, but we are all old enough to read this blog, so let's lose (sorry, Interwebz, I meant LOOSE) that tired, immature example.

The term should be, simply,  "..a game of choices.." as in "..a game of (many) choices.." or "...a game of (very few) choices..". I don't care if a wiki somewhere defines "sandbox" as a game that allows you to play the game in many ways, or however it defines the word sandbox.

F*** the wiki, please.

What players are trying to say (no matter how the word has been defined) when they call a game "sandbox" is that the game has many options, and that the game allows that player to play in many, many ways. Not that the game allows many choices just within the physical boundaries of the game, which might be what is "given" as part of the current definition.

At least, that's what I HOPE the players are trying to say, otherwise they are using the term to say "..this game has about as many choices as a pile of sand."

So, a game should be bragged about, not for having a few choices, but for having a large sum total of choices, many things to do and many ways to do those things. And I say "brag" because most players seem to use the term "sandbox" like they do "hardcore": to make it seem as though the game they are playing somehow requires a deeper type of thinking.

Just a side note, an immersive game does not necessarily mean it has many choices, so let's leave "Immersion" out of it, for now.

Think of a blank room with a blender, a light switch and a couch.

There are the players that would prefer to nap, prefer to blend or prefer to switch. Maybe the game allows you to do all of those on one character, and maybe only one of those on one character. Just because the game allows you to do them all does not mean that the game has the limitless choices of a "sandbox." (Allowing for sandbox to mean "limitless choices" for now.) Allowing a player to do all those things just means that the game is giving you a few choices, because there are only a few things to do.

Now, if the game allowed you to make not only those choices, but choices that saved you time (a cash shop, for example) or choices that allowed you to do those things in different ways (turning on the blender with your feet, for example) then that would be closer to a true "game of (many) choices." One reason I play like I do is that I enjoy looking at the different ways to do the same things that every one else is doing (for example, making up a trading route in Vanguard when there is no "official" route, using only limited forms of chat that are "realistic" like local chat or in-game "letters" instead of the "magic world chat box" of normal MMO's. ) I like to take any game and use my imagination to turn it into the ultimate game with (many) choices.

But, in reality, most players want to follow the rules placed on them by the game. (Ironically, 99 percent of MMO's have no "rules," just areas of the game that are encouraged, but whatever.) So, to them, the game should be measured by the total number of actual in-game mechanics and systems. A sum total of all the "things to do."

So, add up the "things to do" in your "sandbox" game. Seriously, take a piece of paper and write 'em down.

Of all the games I have played, Mabinogi has probably the most systems in any game I have come across. In other words, it is closer to any "sandbox" than any game out there. But, I might be getting ahead of myself, and thinking of the first game off the top of my head.

Ryzom has a few things to do, but one character can do them all. Still, the sum total of things to do (we are not counting role-play) is low.

Vanguard has a great deal of things to do, and the characters are rich in race choice and in abilities. Every character is an everyman, and can do a little bit of everything. Many choices, and many ways to do them.

Darkfall, the point of this post, has very few choices. Very few. Granted, I am aware that Darkfall was designed to be a massive battle pvp-game that does it well, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it has one of the smallest lists of things to do. Even with my "Immersion Project" pumping some life into the game, the community (a potential game asset) is loud-mouthed enough to just ruin it. Also, the landscape is dead and bland. Pretty, but bland.

No housing: something to do.

No flying: something to do.

Nothing to explore: something to do.(Technically, my opinion, but something that is backed up by players. The game has nothing to explore but more landscape. While this could be wrong for some players, this is mostly agreed upon by the players I have talked to, my only source of information that I can rely on.)

No real death penalty: Higher level players that have played longer confirm this. Losing items means nothing, 90 percent of the time. No fear of death is a loss of something to do: being afraid. Tension can elevate a boring situation into a fantastic one.

Even EVE, with it's limited things to do (having many ways to do those things does not mean the actual number is high) has more things to do than Darkfall, thus seeming more "sandbox."

Let's stop using cheesy terms like "sandbox" and "hard-core" because they don't really apply to what they are being applied to. Just call it what it is or is not: .."a game of ______ choices." Darkfall is a great Mass PvP game, like EVE without the fun stuff that most players do (most EVE players do not PvP regularly) but that does not make Darkfall a "game of many choices."

Now, if I can just convince people to stop using the term "fail."

Beau Turkey

Death1942 writes:

fail blog,   jk

From your viewpoints on Sandbox it appears that nothing comes close to matching the definition, which is fine i suppose.  Maybe we need a better/new word?

Tue Jun 23 2009 2:23AM Report
kazamx writes:

I always saw the sandbox in Darkfall as being from the political perspective.

 

The world changes a lot as Alliances grow and fall. This has a dramatic impact on guilds over the whole server. it can be really exciting fighting for your alliances survival or trying to destroy an enemy alliance.

 

in many MMOs the saving/destroying don't mean squat. The game mechanics protect people from being hurt. They make sure everyone is a winner and that victory means nothing.

Using WAR as an example. Who really cares if we take that keep the other side has claimed? If  we take it they don't really care. if we take their zone it does't matter. At the end of the day even if we raid their city the game mechanics will reset everything in 2 hours back to the start anyway. By making loss mean nothing you also make victory mean nothing.

You (and many other people) can't tell the difference between a sandbox and toys in a sandbox. Sure Darkfall doesn't have as many buckets, spades and crap as many people would like, but they will come in time.

What Darkfall does have is the basis for everything we could want. When I say we, I mean the people who don't want the hand holding themepark experience where everyone is a winner. They have created the sandbox. A world without loading screens, without artificial borders (think wow mountains separating zones) without invisible walls, if you can see it you can go there.

The full loot system guarantees that crafters will not only be needed but also vital to your alliance.

Darkfall is NOT a game for the solo player. As a solo player you miss out on a lot of what Darkfall has to offer. the meta game excludes solo players. Many people will scream that its horrible and they want to be solo and don't want to be excluded. There are hundreds of MMOs out there that cater for people who like solo play. Is it honestly too much to ask that one caters for those of us who like the fact its based around groups? Why should every game out there be based on solo play where you can level through level based zones all the way to cap without speaking to another player? Why can't we have some games where its all about the meta game?

If you want to complain that Darkfall doesn't have enough brightly coloured plastic spades for you, thats fine. Your right it doesn't, yet.

It is however the only game out there that has the potential to grow into an amazing free world. Show me another game out there other than MO that even stands a hope?

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 4:25AM Report
Mystik86 writes:

I read the first little bit of the blog and had to post a comment, I probably agree with a lot of the rest but the beginning needs some ellaboration.

First off, you say to define those words and assume that in defining them you'll understand why they are so hurtful, but that's wrong. Both of those words originally meant very different and harmless things, much like the word "fuck".

It bothers me more when people get so offended by those words when they never even knew the origins of the words. Quite frankly, the oh so horrible "N-word" can be applied to ANYONE. It means "lazy person" or to be lazy. I'm lazy, so I could be called a "n***er". I smoke, and my grandmother who is Scottish always playfully refers to them as fags. Take the whole word, "faggot" for example as well. A faggot is a bundle of sticks. For whatever reason the word was adapted to mean "homosexual man".

Even the word "queer" has been twisted to suit the "new-age" crowd, and yet they forget that it originally meant strange or strangeness or weird. So what? I'm straight and I'm weird so I could be called queer could I not?

One of the biggest words I find thrown around more than "sandbox" is the word "gay". Gay meant happy, to be a happy person. A lot of stereotypes for gay men depict happy go-lucky men and so the word was adapted into a more derogatory term to INSULT gay men, and women. It just really bugs the ever-loving crap out of me.

At any rate, I need to read the rest of your blog so I don't seem like a total asshole.

Tue Jun 23 2009 5:02AM Report
madnagash writes:

Hi Beau,

I have to disagree with almost everything you say (I like you though, so don't take you personal;).

Unfortunately you fail to grasp the sandbox definition and work on the idea in a wrong way. Below I will give you some insight of what I think  "sandboxiness" really is.

1. First of all, sandbox is not only the amount of choices. It's the freedom. Let me explain. Indeed, as you pointed out, Vanguard is a game of choices: it offers many! But alas, it's not sandbox. In a sandbox game I could go anywhere anytime and find something useful to do. Not in VG. Even in a den full of super mega spiders I should be able to find some herbs or minerals which I should be able to mine and sell for a profit. Its not the case here: all the things I am able to do are contained in areas which correspond to my level. Exploration in VG is non-existent for this reason. Sure, I can go anywhere I want but why would I? The only places I will benefit from at level 20 are Lvl 20 areas and thats it. And it does not require realexploration to find them. It's not really different than in Eq2 or WoW.

 

2. Another example: in a sandbox game I should be able to for example invite 40 friends to the game, and after a brief period of time we could acomplish something serious: be it fighting over territory, killing a mob with good loot etc. We would just equip some stuff, agree on a strategy and try to find an adversary. Our friends who played a bit longer could supply us also with some good gear. In Vg, WoW, Eq2 you can bring 1000 people into the game, but if you don't grind for several whole days, you won't be able to kill a level 40 elite rabbit, even if there's a thousand of you at level 15.

I haven't tried DF yet. But if it allowed me to grab a good piece of armor and a sword on day 1 and help my veteran friends, even to a small degree, without the need to attain level X, when fighting a big troll or during a siege than it is sandbox...even though one with not many choices....

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 5:40AM Report
madnagash writes:

Another thought to the above post. What the sandbox game (Eve, UO, maybe DF) tells you is that:

- if you think, create a strategy, prepare yourself, get proper equipment etc. you can accomplish anything, anywhere and anytime in the game world. (Good example: when I started in Eve, my friend bought me a good frigate on day 2 together with all accessories which I wanted. I then helped his corporation in minig, we chased some players, explored an anomaly in a 0.0 space, and then there was a corporation battle - i did this in the first days in the game and I did my share!)

What the other, leveling, non-sandbox MMOs try to tell you is that:

-your strategy, gear, strategies matter only to a certain degree, because the defining factor is the time spent in the game. If you haven't played for several weeks you are not eligible for most of the content, eg. you will not kill level 40 elite rabbits at level 20, no matter what you do. You can come near such a rabbit, walk in its environment, but it will not be interactive for you. ou might as well watch some screenshots of the place. Strangely enough, all the plants, minerals and amterials growing there are also for level 40s!

Tue Jun 23 2009 5:55AM Report
beauturkey writes:

Ah, too many comments..need some coffee..be right back.

 

 Beau

Tue Jun 23 2009 7:13AM Report
beauturkey writes:

 A few comments so far:

 1) The use of those two words I put in the beninning: I am not going to get into all that on this blog, but needless to say, I am talking about people who use those words in the wrong situation. If you are saying the word means "lazy", that still has nothing to do with the fact that when someone says "my n***er" they are not saying "my lazy person."  That's why most of you will not walk down the street screaming it, you know what it truly means, despite what any book or wiki says.

 2) Darkfall, without it's borders and loading screens is not uncommon. Maybe 7 years ago when it started it would be uncommon, but not now. You might think that it has given you more freedoms, but it has not given you anything above being able to kill anyone, anywhere. There are examples of everything else in that game in other games. And please, Darkfall fans, stop saying that I am asking for stuff like "neon" or "bright colors." I am not. I am asking for something TO DO. There is plenty to do, like i said, if you are into mass pvp battles. That doesn't mean that it has A LOT to do, though.

3) I didn't say Vanguard was sandbox, I just listed it to see how many choices it had. I am using the term sandbox, anyway, I am listing the amount of choices. Going anywhere and being able to do anything still does not add choices of things you can actually do to the list. I could have a square white box and would be able to do anything with it I wish, as long as the box allowed it.. That does not mean that there are many choices of things to do inside the box, according to the maker of the box.

 Making a difference in EVE , even with a smaller ship, does not mean that that is some unique form of combat. That is, again, just a different take on the theme: combat. Technically, I could supply mats to a pvp'er, without actually taking part in combat, and have the same role: a role in combat while I am at a "smaller capacity." 

 My point here is that we can take games and say that they have many things to do becuase they have many ways to do the same 5 things. Or fewer.

 Darkfall has a few.

 1) Combat.

 2) Crafting.

 3) Exploring.

 Now, take the ship battles, the ganking, the keeps, take the walking for miles and the crafting. All of those fit under a very small tent.

 Mabinogi, as example, has:

 1) Crafting

 2) Trading

 3) Housing

 4) Collecting

 5) PvP

 6) Combat

 7) Exploring

 ..and probably some that I missing. And within those categories the various choices greatly outnumber Darkfalls. GREATLY outnumber. 

 This is about, simply, number of choices of things to do (without making them up, like I do, in some games.) Darkfall does not have that many choices.

 Are those choices coming? I have said from the very beginning that they probably will, and have never said the game was horrible. It is simply....simple, and nothing that has not been done before, save maybe for completely open pvp (no safe zones.) 

 Well, excpet for those hundreds of FPS's out there.

 

 Beau

 

 

 

 

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 7:30AM Report
beauturkey writes:

(not* using the term sandbox, I meant..in the Vanguard part.)

Tue Jun 23 2009 7:32AM Report
rem0te writes:

Hey, to me "Sandbox" has never been about having many option.

The term "Sandbox" was originaly coined for "a world you can shape as you see fit".

There is no guideline on "what you should do" as a corp.  I've seen corporation that formed out with the sole purpose of raising the money and manpower to build a station deep in 0.0 space to be used by anyone.

A world that is shaped by the player action, beyond the simple mechanic of puting your guild name on a territory, is, in my book, allowed to use the "Sandbox" term.

I didnt see Second Life mentioned in your blog, and thats a shame, because truly, Second Life is the very embodiment of "Sandbox", although, to most people opinion, there is too much "Sand" and not enough "game" :P

Tue Jun 23 2009 8:10AM Report
rem0te writes:

Ooops, Seems I removed the fact I was talking about about EvE in the 3rd paragraph

Tue Jun 23 2009 8:12AM Report
kazamx writes:

Come on beau, your list of  3 things DF has and 7 that other gamre has is just wrong. I know you try to be balanced, but for whatever reason your not doing it here.

2/ Trading: Darkfall has this. I assume what you mean is the game doesn't have some built in mechanics to do the trading for you such as an AH or an NPC shop? The idea is to trade directly with other players you contact through the trade channel. Most trading happens in capital cities. The RAT alliance set themselves up as player run trading cities. You can go there to buy/sell directly to other players, or members of the RAT alliance are there almost 24/7 and will buy any quantity of anything off you for a fixed cost, they will also sell anything to you for a slightly higher cost. If you are selling in bulk or buying in bulk, a member of the Alliance will port to a capital city using rune stones and trade with you there. If your buying/selling  in really large amounts (guild/alliance quantities) they even travel to your city to do the trade.

Yes the game doesn't have things like an AH or player run shops. But it has provided the opportunity for an entire Alliance to set itself up as a trading hub. these players spent all day trading and really have nothing to do wih the wars as they remain neutral in everything so they can trade with everyone.

You could also look up the Freehold alliance. They have a couple of very large city holdings. These are player run cities but rather than excluding everyone not in their alliance they are set up to let everyone use the facilities for free. Its not 100% safe but they try to police the place to keep it at least as safe as NPC cities.

4/ Collecting: not 100% sure what you mean but if you mean gathering then DF has that. Its pretty much bog standard ore, wood herbs like most games though. You can gather materials from NPCs or other players. NPCs drop special keys that let you go to special instances and get special enchanted gear with great stats.

5/ 6/ Seem the same to me I assume there is a difference in that game that I don't know about to seperate the two. 

From your list it seems DF only lacks housing.

 

I really don't want to come over all FanBoi. I know Darkfall has massive problems and lacks a LOT of features. There is a lot of stuff that they said it would have that isn't in yet. Saying that it does have more potential than any other game out there at the moment to develop into a really free world. This doesn't mean it will be to everyones tastes, but it doesn't have to be. there are a million wow clones out there all aiming for the 'general' population.  Most Hollywood blockbusters get the mainstream audience but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for more specialist movies. Why should every movie try to be all things to all people? 

They have the sandpit, now they need to add more buckets and spades. To me a sandpit isn't how many things you can do. Its how many freedoms you have, how many things they tell you, you can't do. DF lets you do anything you want with the buckets and spades they have put in so far, there may be consequences for doing it, but you can do it. As they add more stuff maybe you and others will begin to understand the difference.

Tue Jun 23 2009 8:29AM Report
rem0te writes:

I got to add this:

You are very right on the fact people use "sandbox" term wrongly.  But it so happen that your understanding of what it means is wrong too.

You seem to think "Sandbox" is about having many tonkas (options) and different kind of sands and rocks (choices).

While the above can be true to some extent, "Sandbox" is truly about taking a simple plastic shovel and build out a castle out of all this sand.

You could have a game with 100 race, limitless customization option, 50 different classe with a Class/SubClass system coupled with a Skill System, 200 different activity to partake in, Millions of different metarial to gather, it would still not be a "Sandbox"

But give WoW player the ability to build another city in the middle of Tanaris, you'll be closer to what "Sandbox" mean.

This is my opinion, and you might disagree.  But so do I with anyone stating the "Sandbox" isnt about "creating" "shaping" and "changing" the world.

Tue Jun 23 2009 9:31AM Report
Player_420 writes:

K Beau, set down the Red Bull, put away the Cocaine and take a deep breath. Doy ou have any idea what your talking about? All sandbox means is the PLAYERS can SHAPE the WORLD with PLAYER BUILT CITIES, a CLASSLESS SYSTEM is kill advancment. 

For Gods sake you dont have to go haywire and claim just because a game isnt perfect its not a sandbox. Darkfall IS indeed a sandbox, so was SWG, Shadowbane and more..

Are they perfect? No

Do they let players mold the world? Yes = Sandbox

Tue Jun 23 2009 9:42AM Report
Player_420 writes:

And just because your blog post is so bad I have to prove you wrong yet again...heres a SMALL list of REAL sandbox games that you didnt mention.

Shadowbane - Class/Muliclass system with seperate skill advancment, exploration, resource control, player cities, player owned stores, banks, trainers, shrines and more. Even the player owned shops were custom, you could choose the shops avatar (or avatars) their race, what they create, they even had levels. I could of course keep going on.

SWG - No class system of pure skill advancment, lots of exploration and no boundries. Player owned housing and shops (custom like shadowbane) and even some player "cities" thou the game never supported a full on "city feature" like shadowbane.

Darkfall - You dont have to level in one specific area if you dont want to, there is TONS of exploration from hidden islands (and island cities) to hidden dragon caves and ancient cities. Once again we hae pllayer owned cities, shops, and even in Darkfall there are seaports which is very different for a MMO to have naval warfare. In a darkfall city you could absolutly have your own house or shop, and you are never limited within the game worldd boundries. No invisible lines here.

I havent even scratched the surface, think before you blog next time.

Tue Jun 23 2009 9:49AM Report
beauturkey writes:

 I have played all those games.

 Everyone read this carefully, in case I missed it or did not make it clear:

 I am not trying to re-define "sand-box." 

 I am trying to say that many, many players use it in many, many ways. So, there are many, many definitions for it. That's the problem. 

 I am simply saying that sandbox is about as useful a term as FUN in this case. Different for everyone.

 The things that you guys are mentioning that Darkfall has are commonplace, like trading, exploring, holding on to keeps. It's been done, still doesn't mean that DF offers more choices than any other game.

 Shaping the world doesn't mean it;s sandbox. You aren't shaping the world in a sandbox game, all the players together are. But guess what? They are in every single MMO out there. Just because certain static things in the game would not move or go away does not mean that the interactions between players cannot change.

 Do some of you really think that the players in Darkfall are all running around doing unique, game-changing things? Here ios a list of what they are doing:

 1) Killing people.

 2) Trading.

 3) Playing with a guild.

 4) Asking about, and following, certain "rules" like how to kill the fastest, what skills to work on..etc...

 Within a few minutes of playing I was told how to get started the right way. The gentleman that told me was a nice guy, but he essentially gave me a mini-walkthrough that most players follow. THAT'S NOT SANDBOX. Players can, yes, ignore those rules, but they can avoid a linear path in most MMO's as well. I do, I am proof of that.

 PS: I did not mention Second Life, something that I have a 5 year old account for, because I have mentioned it a million times before.

 Beau

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 11:12AM Report
Inktomi writes:

Beau, I saw this in my daily reads and thought of your stance on sandboxery 

"Players are our content," he explained of the game, which pits 100 players in small sandbox areas where they play out highly-customized incidents of Cops versus Robbers over an entire urban environment." - Realtime Worlds' creative director Dave Jones in an interview with Gamasutra.

I am not taking any stance on what you are trying to portray in this blog, I just thought you would find it interesting. And did you read my blog on sandbox theory?

 

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 12:33PM Report
kazamx writes:

Beau,

Sandbox isn't about how many things you can do its about how many things you can't do. Darkfall doesn't limit the things you can do with the toys you have been given.

As I said before, are right that there aren't as many toys as some mother games. It doesn't change the fact that almost all other games put a LOT more restrictions on your char and your interaction with the world than Darkfall.

For example, if you join most other MMOs you can't play with your friends for weeks or even months if your a casual. They are too high level and destroy your XP if they help you and can't even walk around the areas they play in. in Darkfall you can.

If your new your sure as hell not going to be invited to go out on a gathering raid in your first few days by long term players. In darkfall you can gather everything from day 1.

If your new your not going to be invited to go PvP in most other MMOs inside your first few weeks. In Darkfall you can. You will be crap, but you will be part of the action and survive a hell of a lot better than a level 5 would with level 80s in WoW.

I am trying to get the point over Beau that its not about how many plastic toys are in your sandbox. housing is just a plastic toy, its not sandbox. All the other things you talked about are plastic toys. The sandbox element is saying that you can use whatever plastic toys you are given however you want.

It doesn't matter how many thousands and thousands of features a game like wow or war or AOC have, they ALL can never be sandbox. thats because the plastic toys aren't the sand, they are the tools to let you play with the sand, that is all.

Tue Jun 23 2009 4:40PM Report
beauturkey writes:

 Sorry guys for not getting back sooner. Thank you for all the great comments. Between here and my blog I get so many good comments that I have to go back and re-think everything.

 And that's good! :)

 I'll be reading your blog tonight, Ink.

 

 Beau

 

 

 

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 8:39PM Report
Inktomi writes:

 yay...

Ever think about collaborating, or are you a solo joe all the way? (besides the dear wife I mean)

Tue Jun 23 2009 9:19PM Report
beauturkey writes:

 Yeh I can barely handle the blog and sitting down with the wife. Making complete sentences is hard for ....for...

...me.

 I 'm always open to ideas, though! :)

 

 Beau

 

 

Tue Jun 23 2009 9:30PM Report
Faitu writes:

Alright, I agree that Darkfall isn't a sandbox, but nonetheless, a MMORPG simply cannot be a sandbox. I see sandbox as a term that is viable for single player games, as you may have the power to shape the world as you wish when you play. But when you're playing a massive game, your liberties just go as far as other players', hence you cannot impact the world much individually, it is only possible collectively. Players themselves can't change anything unless they are a part of something much bigger than themselves.

As someone mentioned, Darkfall is not a solo game, and solo games do even worse attempts of approaching an ideal of sandbox, for it is impossible and/or unfair for individual players to shape the world as they wish. Dakfall simply distributes the good feeling of being able to modify the world among huge amount of players mutually, as their guilds/alliances succeed. It might not be a perfect approach, but it is going on the right track in this sense. Nonetheless, where it is more sandbox-like in the political features of the game, it seriously lacks interaction in several other aspects, so indeed, it is far from being perfect.

Thu Jun 25 2009 9:03AM Report
beauturkey writes:

Each player is an individual, and effects any world individually.

 That's like saying that one persons vote doesn't matter. It might seem that way, but only because other individuals acted.

 Same in Darkfall: a large group of players does not magically come out and do things. A large group of players is made up of individuals making their own decisions.

 It's the same in any game...players can effect the outcome of the world if enough of them decided to act in a certain way.

 

 beau

 

 

Thu Jun 25 2009 10:10AM Report
rageagainst writes:

meh DF is a sandbox, though not by your definition. PvP/politics wise it is a sandbox, though it doesn't have very much sand to play with if you want to do something other than conquer cities.

Fri Jul 03 2009 4:46PM Report
Wyldsong writes:

With you when you are loving, against you when you are "hating" (ie making truthful observations), isn't that always the way?  Have fun, doubt I will make it back to this corner of MMORPG for more fun, bash away=)

FYI - I agree with you on DF and the sandbox issue, just don't strain yourself too much with defense.  Many of these peeps would argue that the world is indeed flat (and probably believe it) if they thought it would prove DF is indeed a sandbox.

Mon Jul 06 2009 10:12PM Report

MMORPG.com writes:
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