You see it all the time, post saying "why don't MMOs do this or that?" Why doesn't anyone try this?" all we get are Wow clones".
We seek the holy grail.
On the other end, MMO devs stick to tradition like it was gosphel and lord himself would smite down the one to stray from "the way".
The marching morons
But we the players march too, only to the beat of a different drum. We march steadfastly on into the jaws of every new MMO release we know isn't what we are looking for but hope against the odds maybe beyond reason, that somehow it will be. The Devs have their "holy grail", forever chasing the juggernaut player base of WoW in hopes of snagging a few of them. Somewhere in the middle of that mess are the broken husk of dozens of ruined and failed MMOs of today.
And that is where things get tripped up. Devs assume (like most players) that the WoW player base is made up of traditional MMO players. They bring their games to the holy alter of WoW and gladly sacrifice them in hopes that the god of blizzard will smile down apon them and grant them a few hundred thousand players. But the harsh reality is, the diety named blizzard isn't listening. careing nor are its masses of followers. (as SOE and SWG soon found out)
MMO devs are having an identy crisis of sorts. You see IMHO, WoW players are not interested in other MMO's. There is ample evidence of that. Pick any MMO released in the last 2 years and fine one with more then 150k subs. If that was the case, most MMO's would not be dieing off like they are. MMO's as a whole have not benefited from the WoW explosion. WoW continues to grow and maintain while the rest of the genre stagnates and dies. It was made for the Blizzard player base not MMO players.
MMO players don't like WoW. Simple truth. I enjoyed the game myself, I won't lie. Its a great game..but its not what I'm looking for in an MMO. I don't like raiding and if I want to play capture the flag, I will play BF2 / BF2142 / MoH or dozens of other games that frankly, do it better. The backlash against WoW within the MMO community is enormous.
Devs don't see it for some odd reason. They continue to emulate WoW at every opportunity. Look at LotR's, a fine well made game...only its not doing as well as Turbine thought it would. No record breaking announcements, no benchmarks, no new servers, no log in queues...just another average MMO launch. So clean and quite, you could hear a pin drop. The masses of WoW players seeking an alternitive didn't come. SOE brought SWG to the alter and sacrified it in hopes of a truely grand reward, the reward of masses of players flocking to a "new" SW game with simpler mechanics and more accessibility. Only...no one showed up and the party stopped, the game died.
Those are just two examples, there are more and there will continue to be more until the inevitible happens:
Investors get tired of getting shafted by devs promises of riches.
Tabula Rasa is going to crash hard. No one wants to kill 10 space pigs Rich. You promised something new and unique and what do you give us? Some bastardized version of space Wow mixed with GW instancing and a rehashed SWG - NGE combat system. (and for pete's sake people stop saying TR is a FPS, its played in the third person with random mechanics running the "to hit" its about FPS as WoW is....) Gods and Heroes? Not chance, same old crap only with Romans (and sh*tty performance on top of it) Go kill 10 rats. Been there, done that guys. Will Conan be any different? Unlikely, on top of it, technical requirments will keep this one niche of the niche.
MMO players are not the same as WoW players. I guess what I'm saying is
WoW players don't play other MMO's. They don't want immersive worlds, depth of play or dynamic impact...they want clear objectives with clear rewards. They want points and loot. They want to finish a level and kill the boss.
MMO players don't like WoW. We like depth of play, we like immersive worlds, we like complexity, we like dynamic worlds and choice. We don't want to kill 10 rats, we would like a plot. We don't want an endgame, we would like a continous game. We would like a game world that we could play a part in, not a place to harvest points.
The first dev team to figure this out before they kill off the genre will win.
nice man .. and I think youre right. WOW gamers are not like us haha! I like your thoughts about us looking for the holy grail. Its exactly like that .. Im looking for something, but I dont get it. DAOC, SWG, Lineage2, Everquest2, etcetc. .. and Im already waiting for the next great release AoC . .and Im hoping I will find my grail over there. (Im no english native speaker)
Tue Sep 18 2007 8:55AMAs long as MMO players expect something better out of leveling games, they will continue to be let down. Leveling games come with built in grind. That's the only way to make them. No matter what else is put in them, it will still boil down to the grind.
If MMO players want more depth, their game must include a system that allows for deeper social interaction.
Want wars that matter? Want politics? Want trade? Want exploration and discovery of secrets? None of this works well at all in a leveling game because the players are moved along the level path and out of touch with each other.
Until MMO players get this, and understand this, and START DEMANDING a different play style, they will continue to get the status quo right up until the time that the industry closes it down in favor of MMO's like Barbie Dolls.
If you guys don't get the RPG part, which the industry has successfully abandoned with your blessings, then you'll get what you deserve.
Tue Sep 18 2007 9:30AMI will say you are right on the money. But then the players are also to blame for the way the market is. So many want what WOW is but different. But what WOW did was take a little of everything and make it a game that all could play. Sure it never did one thing better than anyone else nor did they push the envelope in any way other than to make it appealing to a lot of people. SWG was on the right track at one time .. then ... well we all saw what had happened.
I will admit to saying the single best time I have ever had was in a group in SWG sitting around a camp talking and seeing the twin suns of Tatooine across the landscape.
The industry fails to see what it is that brings people to the game. All the people, not just the hard core gamer, or the PVP person. The industry seems to forget that to beat WOW you have to target every player.
I agree with what you said about Tabla Rasa in that it will fail ... there is a lack of vision on the game play style ... There is nothing besides a big war to fight .
You could say that the Grail that is sought may very well be in the hands of Blizzard for thinking of all players and not just a few. Or is it that the game that will hold the true grail has not been thought of or simply can not be made at this time ... yet.....
Tue Sep 18 2007 11:51AMVery well thought out discussion that I agree with. And my son can't understand why I don't want to play WoW anymore, lol.
Tue Sep 18 2007 12:55PMI joked that the true "next gen" MMo would be Pokemon - for all the same reasons...
"Acessibility" = Least Common Denominator.
I think that I haven't heard anyone else put it quite the way this fellow has - but i think alot of people have commented on WoW bringing in a new player base - many of whom may have otherwise been console gamers.
But as Amaranthar said; and Torak - until enough players quit rewarding games that use these 'tired and used' holy grails/ sacred cows; we WILL keep getting the same games- just as Hollywood is putting out the same movies.
Tue Sep 18 2007 1:00PMI noticed you left out the one new MMO coming up that may actually have that "certain something" Warhammer. It's doing a completely different then WoW and I think it might just take off, I'm impressed with it so far.
Otherwise, your rant was pretty good.
Tue Sep 18 2007 2:01PMI'm afraid of "profitability" in a game made for mmoRPG community. That's why they keep pumping out games for the masses - they want the WoW dollars.
Instead of setting the bar high and trying to make it challenging, they make sure no child is left behind - dumbing down close to tard level.
I was hoping Tabula Rasa would be a big sandbox, but it looks like it will be an empty table with strict confines...
Tue Sep 18 2007 3:15PMyes... when we strip all fancy graphics, cool weps n armors, all pathetic background stories (I admit there are exceptions, but most of them are retarded), all we get is leveling, mostly coming down to grinding. so I ask: when u reach the highest level, after discovering "the perfect build", grinding, fitting in with (again, mostly) pretentious forum spammers and ignorant peacemaking moderators, grinding, everyday guild chat with achieving types of players (is there any other type, really?), grinding, wasting tremendous amount of REAL LIFE TIME on something u have to be retarded to like after seeing everything there is to see for thousands of times, over and over, grinding, getting tired of pking low lvl players... and grinding - what than? start all over with "brand-new-unique-never-seen-before-(company name)-release? in what point do we ask ourselves - why the f*ck did I start this? great chick on ad? cool screenies? awesome ratings? or was it fun? it probably (hopefully) was fun. did I have fun? well, developers say I did, they say I still do even while I write this. well, here's little something about "devs": THEY ARE PEOPLE, OK? just like everybody else here. they may like chips a bit more - but that's it. and the only thing they want is their monthly paycheck. problem is - game has to be popular. and how do u get one - well, by having bunch of anime/sci-fi/epic fiction fans and cool graphics and catchy phrases and sexy-looking characters, of course. basic problem is - NOBODY GIVES A F*CK WHETHER U R HAVING FUN WHILE PLAYING - ADVERTISING FILLS THAT HOLE, IT'S ABOUT RETAIL PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION FEES AND MALL ITEMS and concerning hollywood: it's doing just fine with its blockbusters, and screaming audience, people who like other movies better are considered (in my country, at least) weirdos. holy grail is nothing but a game which puts all that commercialisation to 2nd (3rd, 4th, last) place. concretely - I agree with Amaranthar: I want politics and culture and more of human factor involved in mmos, and to be honest - no matter how bittered or pessimistic I am, I believe that kind of games will come with time, all we should do is keep wishing and protesting.
Tue Sep 18 2007 4:18PMI think you've expressed a sentiment that a lot of us here are feeling.
Tue Sep 18 2007 6:46PMI love your ideas. You have articulated what i've felt for a long time. Bring us something new, bring us something NOT wow, MMO players don't play wow.
I think you summed up most of our "idyllic" mmorpgs with a persistent world that doesn't have the Kill 10 rats quests. Or even a Quest driven game... (no reason to group). whatever. you have said it better than i could.
Just wanna shout out, /agree. /nods /yo /awesome.
Wed Sep 19 2007 12:57AMYou're probably right. I played WoW, enjoyed the discovery and classes until they got old, quit and didn't look back. I didn't look at any other MMOs because they didn't have any RPG content that WoW didn't already give me.
So I realized, I'm not an MMO player, I'm an RPG player. And honestly, after just that small bit of WoW, LOTRO and every other MMO out there are less interesting to me as RPGs than Pokemon.
Wed Sep 19 2007 1:33AMAt lot of WoW players leave, try something new then go back. I liked WoW but after 6-8 months it was the 'same old story '. There's only so many time you can do the same quest as a differnt class/race.
I don't think it's fair to mention Gods and Heroes poor performance, it's still in Beta and they are diligently working. I do agree that's it is 'same old, same old' wrapped up in a Roman tunic.
As another comment oriented individual said..'You didn't mention WAR' and yet you did mention AoC. I havent tried either yet though I am looking forward to doing so if I ever get an invite. Based on the information out for the 'general consumption' I am assuming that AoC might be a couple of months worth of play for me then it will become same old etc.
Holy Grail..yes. Need it, want it..gimme some of that! Will we find it? I have no idea. I like what I hear about WAR but only time will tell if it's a WoW clone... And before people flame this comment, I know WAR the game/books have been around since long before WoW was a gleam in a Dev Coders eye. I truly hope WAR is the grail but all too many bright and shiny cups have been filled with wine turned to vinegar or water with too much algae in it in the past. I'll wait and see.
Wed Sep 19 2007 10:33AMOne of the most elusive and difficult goals of any MMO is to make the player feel that their presence and efforts make a difference. In a single player RPG the player is the focus and the hero(villain) No one has successfully brought that experience to the genre. Until devs decide that the global story should be the conglomeration of its citizens actions, we are all playing these games on rails.
Screw the Fed Ex missions and the rat killings. Give me a game mechanic that allows me to contribute and shape a storyline in a unique and personal way. Something along the lines of a merger of the sandbox style play of EVE coupled with a heroic widespread coflict where I can see and experience tangible changes in the world based on my individual, guild and faction interactions.
Turbine's AC2 tried something like this but couldn't get the kinks worked out before the kitty ran out of cash. Now they are churning out more of the same old dull gameplay.
Forget repeatable quest/level grinding. Forget set classes. Go back to the beginning with UO and develop your skills based on usage. Empower the player with choice, and make the choices matter.
Remeber those adventure books that were out in the 80's? Where you had to make decisions along the way that affected your story. That's what we need more of. How special do you feel killing the same Epic Dragon level 300 when everyone else at your level has had to do the same thing.
Wed Sep 19 2007 11:36AMOne of the most elusive and difficult goals of any MMO is to make the player feel that their presence and efforts make a difference. In a single player RPG the player is the focus and the hero(villain) No one has successfully brought that experience to the genre. Until devs decide that the global story should be the conglomeration of its citizens actions, we are all playing these games on rails.
Screw the Fed Ex missions and the rat killings. Give me a game mechanic that allows me to contribute and shape a storyline in a unique and personal way. Something along the lines of a merger of the sandbox style play of EVE coupled with a heroic widespread coflict where I can see and experience tangible changes in the world based on my individual, guild and faction interactions.
Turbine's AC2 tried something like this but couldn't get the kinks worked out before the kitty ran out of cash. Now they are churning out more of the same old dull gameplay.
Forget repeatable quest/level grinding. Forget set classes. Go back to the beginning with UO and develop your skills based on usage. Empower the player with choice, and make the choices matter.
Remeber those adventure books that were out in the 80's? Where you had to make decisions along the way that affected your story. That's what we need more of. How special do you feel killing the same Epic Dragon level 300 when everyone else at your level has had to do the same thing.
Wed Sep 19 2007 11:37AMHundreds of thousands of suscribers, more suscribers than some countries have population. Yet how neat you put them all in one tiny cardboard box.
Nothing and no one is that simple. Blizzard never had that size of a fan base before WoW. So yes, Blizzard did make a game to appeal to its fan base as a start. But like any good company, they're not going to just tailor something for people they already have. Where's the sense in that?
You say a "true" mmo gamer doesn't want repeatable quests/level grinding and you want to go back to developing skills on usage? Skills developed on "usage"? How the hell is that not grinding? So no quests? No story lines? No rewards? Just let us all go out there and kill stuff using one or two skills, and then we "level" in that skill?
That IS a grind. You have defined the term "grind." The progression of mmorpg's will never succeed if they REVERT to old mechanics. DAoC started like that and had the wisdom to progress as the times changed.
It is my opinion that some self-proclaimed "true mmo gamers", are just bitter angry people and they will never be satisfied with any game out there. Mainly because they don't know what they want, they just keep singing their anthem of "We want better!"
Wed Sep 19 2007 1:30PMI disagree, I have a feeling more than 70% of people on www.mmorpg.com play, and have played wow.
You can't get mad at a company for copying something successful everyone wants to ride the money train until it hits a brick wall.
We're going to see a lot more WoW clones and recycled ideas within the next 5 years.
You can't expect companies to grow testicles and use all that sponsor money on something risky and new, they're going to go with someone old so they can at least guarantee some subscriptions.
We all talk about how we want deep and in-depth worlds with lots of complicated features, but look what game is trying to do that and turned out as vaporware? Darkfall :\
We can't get everything we want, and personally I see a dark time for the MMO industry coming.
Wed Sep 19 2007 1:59PMUmm i'm a Mmo player, played since Meridan 59. Went on to Ultima Online, Everquest, Ashersons Call, Dark Ages of Camelot and so on.... and as a MMO player. I like WOW.. hmm so that statment is false that not MMO players hate WoW.
And face it, killing 10 rats to level is what they are all about anymore. There are no skill based games like there was with UO. No one has come up with a real one that doesn't require levels. Just you gaining skills in various areas.
I'm hoping one comes out soon that has some depth, but all current games and those coming yet that I've seen offer nothing to that. What you're looking for doesn't exist yet.
Wow offers me some fun, till a good game comes along.
BTW you can't find a good game where developers actually listen to you when the games released. They may act like it a few times, but for it's worth, they are all the same. Dont' target Wow, look at other games and tell me you never saw the same thing.
And we can't have a game with good character classes that isnt' destroyed by players who see something in that class that they feel is over powering. So it's fixed by developers and then it's redone again and again. Players destroy games.
Wed Sep 19 2007 6:15PM"We're going to see a lot more WoW clones and recycled ideas within the next 5 years."
Here is were I disagree, MMO's are changing and evolving but in a direction many of us are not going to like. Micro transactions and less world style. The next 2 or so years, the last of the current type MMOs in development will release but the next wave is already filling up with things like the "The Agency" and "Metaworld". Online gaming is making huge money, MMORPG's...not so much.
Some good discussions here, remember I didn't advocate anything bad about WoW players or about WoW itself. It is a good game. I liked it myself and pop in every now and then. What I'm say is all things being equal, generally speaking MMORPG fans have fundamental differences in taste from WoW fans. That is a neural statement, neither good or bad.
Wed Sep 19 2007 11:49PMI agree with what you say, but I am interested on your take of Aion, the eastern game with western influence. I know you like the world L2 set up for you, but from what I've read about this game, the players have more control over the world then any other game I have yet to read about. You hunt baby dragons in one area, they die off and a new mob appears, the baby dragons mother. You mine for a stone in one area and as a result from that a new stone is found. Economy is largely player driven, with castles in the pvp zones holding great influences (and collecting taxes!). Seems the game might have some of those elements you were looking for.
Sun Jan 20 2008 4:54PMMMORPG.com writes:
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