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MMO WK

Behind this mysterious title I'm hiding some hard work that might be published someday ;) The purpose of this blog is to share thoughts with you who love/hate MMO.

Author: Deewe

Time for a better LOOT & RAID system

Posted by Deewe Monday November 10 2008 at 2:28PM
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Aren't you bored of having to kill flying pigs to find out only 1 over 20 have a "decent" pig leg?

Is that fun to spend 3 hours in a RAID and get out hands empty?
 

 

Before anything else, could we just stop having non intelligent species from dropping gold, weapons, clothes? It's pointless and kills the immersion.

Not that I'm against a huge mob, having eaten a few npcs, being stuck with some equipment inside...

How about, in MMOs, when you kill a mob/npc the looted gear is more scavenged from it than looted?

If a NPC was bashing you with a sword don't you expect to be able to get it out of his, still hot, body. As you would get teeth, hides, claws, scales from monsters.

Maybe that item would not be in premium condition, so you still could  improve it or at least get subcomponents.

Also when you are hunting for... flying pigs, would you not like getting at least one intact pig leg per mob, if not more? Don't you feel the devs are taking you for an idiot with the quest saying get me 10 legs when they know you'll need to kill 100+ mobs? How that's FUN?

 


 

Now about RAID loot distribution, how come people accept to spend 3+ hours in an instance when you know there are very real chances you'll get nothing for your efforts? This contrary to the guy/girl next to you who did nothing more.

I'm for a system that rewards all players for their participation:

  • Let's say at the end of a RAID each player gets randomly one or multiple tokens. (ie: from 1  to 3)
  • Each token as a base roll % (15%)
  • Optionally tokens can be spend to access to higher loot tables (3 token table +1, 7 tokens table +2)
  • A second option could be the token value decrease depending on the loot table. (table = base value, table = 50% base value, table 3 = 25% base value)
  • Tokens can also be stacked (4 tokens = 60% roll)
  • All used tokens are lost even if the roll is a miss.

 

This system would be rewarding both for the casual and hardcore gamer. High end items would still be rare but not anymore impossible to get in the long term for anyone.

The main difference is everyone gets something and the choice of the roll is now in the hands of the player. Plus it let players choose how much they want to gamble.

Thoughts?

Cerza writes:

Don't they have something like this in WOW with the Badges of Justice. Everyone contributes to killing the raid boss, everyone gets 2 badges, which they can use to get epic gear from a vendor or something so everyone wins?

Mon Nov 10 2008 2:45PM Report
caemsg writes:

the problem is gear centric games if you built a game where all gear was all more or less tha same and just for asthetics you would do short raids for fun or not raid at all then raids could be taken out and instances done away with and a better game could start being created

Mon Nov 10 2008 3:21PM Report
nomadian writes:

I agree with the loot thing- in a more rpgish mmorpg that is important. Something like WoW and that is more don-t-care-about-little-details -isn't-really-wanting-to-be-a-serious-rpg.

About the Raid thing and rewarding efforts for going, I've always wondered about Raid exp. Imagine advancements for raids and that would be good incentive for people to play for raiding itself as an activity.

Mon Nov 10 2008 4:12PM Report
fansede writes:

I must say WARs PQ Loot system is reasonable. You partcipate in a raid like atomosphere where a large amount of players are focused on a goal. The best loot is won by a roll. However, rolls are modified by contribution to the event. The more you contribute, the higher the modifier to the roll. If you don't win anything, the influence you earned can be cashed in for gear at a vendor.

This goes for Keep Lords (however, there is no influence earned for Keep captures).

I believe this model is the most reasonable I have seen for raids

Mon Nov 10 2008 5:59PM Report
armorfans writes:

good

Mon Nov 10 2008 7:53PM Report
markoraos writes:

The OP is describing WAR's loot system almost to the detail...

Tue Nov 11 2008 6:29AM Report
craynlon writes:

why would you even get a share of loot in an immersive rpg mmo just by standing close or beeing in that raid group when the dragon dies.

imho people that click on the dragon to loot it should get rewards based on their looting skills and rogues trained to nib items should be able to steal from the group.

there should be however a chance for everyone that stands close to notice who take what grab a sword and beat it out of him.

Tue Nov 11 2008 6:37AM Report
craynlon writes:

ps.:

a raid against a monter that endangers parts of the land or a dragon that captured a princess should have 70% rewards not attached to drops.
what i mean is: if a king sends out 20 fighters to slay an evil troll the king should offer the reward and and the participants should earn fame in the deed rather then carrying sackloads of gold out of a stinking swamp hole.

Tue Nov 11 2008 6:40AM Report
lath456 writes:

I don't see why games starve players of loot.  They just turn it into a treadmill that nobody really enjoys, and those who are most willing to run this treadmill (which is filled with frustration mind you) are only a small percentage of all players who play the game.

40 people go on a raid, spend 6 hours raiding, and 3-8 people come out with loot.  Fun?  No.  I never understood this philosophy.  We can all testify about how horrible our rolls/drop rates are, nothing like spending weeks attending raids to have the few items you can use drop when you had to go to your father's birthday right?

If 5 people can go adventure in a dungeon, which can be reset and run multiple times per day, they can load up on tons of lesser quality gear.   People seem to really enjoy this aspect of most games.  Why does it then suddenly stop at the max levels?

Organizing and devoting ridiculous amounts of time is the downfall to raiding.  The final straw is the apparent lack of loot for the effort of 20-40 people.  Everyone who attended should get something so long as the raid get something done.  Enough with the "luck of the draw" loots.

Tue Nov 11 2008 1:11PM Report
Deewe writes:

Thanks for your input, comments below:


@Cerza: Not really. In wow you need many many badges to get an item, forced grind. Plus you don't have the choice to gamble

@Caemseg: I agree but not the topic here ;)

@nomadian: Raiding XP sounds interesting but how do you make it attractive for both casual and hardcore gamers and you might be loosing the possibility to gamble.

@Fansede: WAR system isn't bad but from my expericence too many players don't get an item. Even more when there are multiple warbands.

@Markoraos: Far from it, please read again.

@craynlon: I don't see where I stated the player did nothing. Also my guess is if he did nothing he would have been booted out of the RAID way before the end.

@Lath456:I like the "luck of the draw" idea.

Tue Nov 11 2008 4:07PM Report
Eluwien writes:

@Deewe

I agree with you indeed, that looting should be the next big thing to be improved in MMO, I would like to remind you tho that each incident of loot that comes to exist in a MMO world is on a database that requires its upkeep, also each incident of something dropping requires carefull planing of AI and has direct effect on the markets (already a major topic) of the realm. So creating in all ways working and immersionproof looting system, is extremely complicated project and can even be problematic due hardware limitations.

You state the obvious with the pigs, they should indeed have atleast one leg each, prefetably for the pig ofcourse they'd still have all four. Renaming the "pigs leg" to "set of four pigs legs" (ingame, or in your mind) and giving reward from each kill (WAR currently does) handles the problem simply enough. Problem comes when you indeed quadruple the amount of loot items and do that to all similar quests, it may suddenly require extra harddrive alone to handle the added data on server side. The pile grows exponentially, when your "if he has a sword, you'll get one from kill" is implemented, you can imagine. Whole looting side of the game has to be designed completely differently, to allow impressive&massive loot system, you can see EVE or "soon to be Darkfall" for example.

The effect of any loot system to the markets of a realm is even more delicate process to look into. Basicly it revolves around the question  of wealth in/wealth out - balance, more there is loot / wealth, faster it has to go away or major inflation hits the markets. Also desing team has to consider the effect loot system has to the idea of the content and thus the whole game style. Tossing in a full loot on PVP kill system to WoW or Warhammer at this point, would ruin the idea of the game as badly as making ships and their setups last through death in EVE. Even minor changes in looting system can cause major issue to the community, for example in WoW the change from "extremely rare, and thus expensive and valued" loot became "everyday casual loot for sunday alt", mainly by changing the way desireable item is archieved faster and easier (and in the other hand, the very "difficulty" of aquiring desireable item in WoW, was behind small drop chances).

The token idea you present would then basicly make "desireable raid loot" accessible by in average 6 or 7 attempts or rolls by all X amount of raideres equally, indeed way less "grinding" than counter example has. But then again it rips the value of the desireable item drasticly, for one it cannot be considered rare or unique, it monetary value (ie its effect on markets) has to be cut to even out its vast numbers and its stats and similar effects to game mechanics have to be taken into account in "balancing" maths, because its no longer only few handfull that has this. Also the problem that comes from easy to access loot ideas is that everyone looks the same eventually, this is a major problem to immersion and community.

So at the same time as looting indeed deserves to be considered even further in MMO's, extremely careful design is required not to rip all the value of archievement from the process.

ps. Remember as a player, that more you talk about these, rather obvious ideas, more they're going to be considered as "public opinnion". And if you forget to put heavy weight on the issue, that everyone having equal easy chance to get the same "extremely rare" items makes the whole idea of loot based gameplay flop, if you forget to say that out loud we're all soon eating the Korean cake. And I mean the cake that is sour from everyone looking exactly the same, markets being all fucked up, and every "desireable items" is just "another god damn pretty dress" with no real effect.

War is not a fair fight, balance is not a virtue, a mass cannot be unique.

Tue Nov 18 2008 5:46AM Report
Deewe writes:

@Eluwien,
I'm well versed in IT and gaming so I know about DB issues, same for spawning mobs & loot. Harware and software are up to the task now, even more with virtualization.


The items don't have to be unique (contrary to SWG implementation and DB issues), so there is no such constraint about storage in terms of DB.


My proposal isn't really for existing MMO. I can hardly imagine the nightmare to implement this in let's say WoW!


The token example could give you 1 item in 6-7 rolls or in much much more if you want to access to higher tables. It stills makes raiding fun desirable even for hardcore but now it's the players who choose the way they want to be rewarded.


I do hope this idea will fall into the public domain and become the public opinion. I'm tired of the actual grind fest Loot & RAID distribution, time to play MMO for fun.


Thanks for your input.
 

Wed Nov 26 2008 2:43PM Report

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