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BadSpock's Logical Conclusions.

My random thoughts about MMORPGs. A bit of critique, suggestion, debate, and insanity. Enjoy.

Author: BadSpock

WoW and skill

Posted by BadSpock Tuesday November 27 2007 at 1:32PM
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I always hear the argument that WoW doesn't take any skill to play, that a idiotic child with half a brain could do anything in the game etc. etc. etc.

Let me say, for the record, that WoW is a game that is easy to learn, but difficult to master. The following will be examples and personal experiences I've had in my long history with WoW that prove my point, however I will also try to predict the arguments against my position and counter them. Please, join in the discussion in a civil and intelligent manner using the comments.

*Note* I no longer play because I got burned out in the 4 days a week 4-6 hours a day raid schedule

First off, let's talk the basics. End-game versus standard play. Standard play, and by this I mean the quests and activities you go through as you level your character to maximum. Yes, this is easy. Leveling your toon from 1 to 70 is fairly fast, fun, and easy. It's 95% solo content, and there are very few real challenges other then following directions, exploring, and managing your character and combat situations effectively. If you play smart, never bite off more then you can chew, and level through questing the game is fairly easy. I will not argue that point.

End game is entirely different. I won't go into the difficulty of PvP too much, as the experience is entirely subjective. It all depends on your class and your skill at using that class in combat with other players, and how good the opponent is, etc. It's entirely too subjective to be discussed logically without simply going into this opinion or that.

End game Pve content is not easy, despite what forum trolls want you to believe. If it were, 90%+ of the players would be going through the high end raids like Naxxaramus (pre-BC) and Black Temple. This is simply not the case. Most Wow players have experienced the pre-BC 10 man raids, and Kharazan post-BC. And that is it. It's just as much about skill in organizing and leading a guild/raiding party as it is knowing your character and how to use their abilities effectively in the raid environment.

Many will argue that it's simply "learning the script and doing the same exact thing every time." To some extent, this is true. But every raid requires all the people in your group to know their role, be able to respond to changing situations, and adapt accordingly. All of which, of course following the rules governed by the encounter's script,  but this is not as easy of a process as some would like for you to believe. As I stated before, in an environment where one person not doing the right thing can cause your group to fail, coordination, teamwork, and communication are just as important as the player skill required to actually complete the game-system related tasks.

This is where the real challenge of end-game PvE raiding comes from. Leadership. You may be an uber gamer, MMO vet and a highly skilled player, but your individual contributions only matter as much as they effect the overall outcome of the group's efforts. Can one great player overcome the hinderance added by having a bad player in the group? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

So why is it this way? MMORPGs are social games. In order to achieve the greatest success in the Pve end-game, you have to be able to succeed in the social structure the game creates. This is on purpose.

Next. Gear vs. player skill vs. talent spec. I played a Warrior for ages, so I'll start their.

Gear: 25% of how effective your character is. WoW is at it's core an EQ clone, so gear is very important.

Talent Spec: 25% of how effective your character is. If you want to tank end-game content as a Warrior, you are going to need to be Protection spec. Same with any other class, to do end-game PvE content, you'll need to be an effective PvE talent spec. This was done on purpose and is "as designed."

Player skill: 50% of how effective your character is. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. When to use what skill, on what target, your positioning (extremely important), your group composition, and so many more.

In order to get the best gear, you need to be skilled. In order to be skilled, you have to know how to build your talents in a way that makes you effective, in order to build your talents you need to know what gear choices to make, what areas to focus on, etc. It's all connected in a circle.

If you simply get what you think is the "best" gear and use any old talent spec, you will not be as effective. If you download the supposed "best" talent spec, but don't have the gear to match the talents, you won't be as effective, and even if you get the best gear and best talents working together, if you don't know how to play the character you will not be effective.

For instance -

Say I want to do PvE as a Warrior doing DPS. Ok, I'll probably put my talent points into the Fury tree, and I'll focus my gear on +Attack power and +chance to hit. Why? Because a Fury Warrior is all about hitting a lot, very quickly, not hitting for very large numbers sparingly. The biggest point of player skill is monitoring your Threat generation so you don't pull Aggro off the Tank while still maintaining high DPS.

Say I want to do PvP as a Warrior. Ok, I'll probably put my talents into the Arms tree. But do I specialize in Axes for improved critical strike chance? Maces for a chance to stun my opponent (usual PvP Warrior pick) or Swords for a chance to double strike? How will I set up my gear? Well for PvP I need Resilience and high stamina, and if I've chosen to use two-handed axes I want to maximize my critical strike chance. Player skill in engaging in PvP combat as a Warrior is a matter of practice and experimentation, you have to learn strategies to use against different classes and in different situations. No two battles are ever the same.

For tanking, how do I want to set my character up? Maximizing my Threat generation is a definite yes, and maximize my survivability is paramount to my success as a tank. But how do I do that? Well if the boss hits very, very hard I should focus on having as much stamina as possible, but also increasing my dodge and parry rates as much as possible to avoid taking damage. One of the biggest factors when tanking is rage generation, so I have to make sure I take enough damage to generate rage so that I can build enough threat to stay above the other 24 people in my raid, but not take so much damage as to where my healers run out of mana keeping my alive before the DPS can pump out enough damage to kill the target....

 

This is just a sample.

The point is, WoW, at the end-game, be it PvP or PvE is not "total carebear uber easy noob mode anyone with half a brain and a couple of fingers can do it crap" like many forum trolls on MMORPG.com will tell you it is.

My guess? 99% of them found the standard game of leveling and doing quests to be too linear or simply not as much fun as everyone else told them it was, and they quit before ever reaching end game.

Either that, or they were lucky enough to get into a Guild with some REALLY talent players that walked them through every encounter and spoon fed them gear upgrades.

They never had to take a rag-tag Guild full of inexperienced raiders and work with them, over the course of months, into raiding condition so that they could clear content and advance. They never had to be a leader. They never had to resolve social disputes and manage an entire Guild full of people that, despite their redeeming and wonderful qualities, in the end wanted new shiny Gear just as much as the next guy/gal.

So please, stop calling World of Warcraft a total carebear game, and please stop saying that it doesn't require any skill at all to play.

Unless you can post pictures of your toon standing over the corpses of the final bosses of major end-game raids, and can honestly say that you got to that point with very little work at all, or can prove you are on a topped ranked PvP Arena team (with over 75% games played) then you have absolutely zero room to talk.

Just because the game is effortless to get into (accessability), not terribly complicated to figure out, isn't full of tedius and wasteful time sinks, and packed with unneccessary complications doesn't mean that it is easy.

It means it is well made.

JB47394 writes:

The skills that I am most interested in are those of creativity and adaptation.  Memorization and regurgitation are not entertaining skills to me, but that is the primary demand of raid members.  My hat is off to anyone who undertakes leading a raid.  That's a tough job, and it does require creativity and adaptation because they are dealing primarily with the people in the raid.

Skills of creativity and adaptation are not required for raiding because either the raid threads the needle or it fails.  Blizzard didn't create raids so that they could almost wipe and then recover.  Yet that's precisely the sort of thing that I want to see.

Each raid should be procedurally altered so that no two raids are identical.  Because they aren't identical, the raids must be more forgiving of mistakes because players are going to be guessing as they go.  The MMO ethic of Learn By Dying doesn't permit the use of skills of adaptation and creativity.  Only those of determination and repetition.

The distinction that illustrates the problem for me is that players use skills to learn how to match their character to a raid script - instead of using skills to adapt and deal with situations that arise during  a raid.  World of Warcraft lacks significant depth because it does not permit adjustments during gameplay, as with Chess or Go or other games of strategy.  There aren't ever more interesting patterns and permutations of patterns as with various parlor games.  There's just the static raid structure and the script to get through it.

World of Warcraft is the best of its breed.  I played it and I enjoyed it for a while.  But it is not a game that I put forward when I speak of games of skill.

Tue Nov 27 2007 2:37PM Report
BadSpock writes:

I do agree with you JB, I'm just trying to say that WoW does indeed take some skill and effort.

I agree that a game that requires skill should have creativity and adaptation in order to be successful, but what MMO has the systems you describe?

Unless the content is 100% player made, i.e. PvP, it has to be scripted and coded. AI is simply not advanced enough.

And their are random variables and variations in raiding, even in WoW, just not so drastic that it completely changes the scenario. The differences matter, just not as signficantly as you and I might wish them to.

Tue Nov 27 2007 2:43PM Report
brutotal writes:

If the biggest challenge of pve is finding people who know the script than there is no real problem. You'll find them by looking at their progression and realizing they suck. Also the players who don't progress will burn out and leave.

Pvp being 50% skill as in knowing what to do at the right time? Thats also "script" or observational learning.  Sure it changes around a bit every time but after a while you'll realize as a mage you need to get away from melee or get close to a hunter because he has a minimum range. With over a hundred hours logged in and having received your skills a couple at a time it shouldn't be difficult to know what your spell does and when to use it.

Tue Nov 27 2007 3:24PM Report
Hexxeity writes:

What if the things in WoW that require skill are things I care least about in a game?

I much prefer a game where the challenge lies in the journey from 1 to 70.

I prefer a game where the equivalent of Talent Spec is not a guranteed automatic win or lose -- where variety is actually a good thing.  Where creating the character you like and playing your own build well can lead to success.

I prefer a game with no "endgame" content so people don't feel compelled to rush past the rest of the game.

I prefer a game where your high-level friends cannot power you through low-level instances.

If WoW is too easy in all the aspects that are actually important to me, am I allowed to call it easy?

Tue Nov 27 2007 3:50PM Report
Gephoria writes:

@heerobya Good article fun reading

@ JB Most FPS is point and click one of 3 buttons usually, mapping keyboard skills r required that fits in with the memorization, but i aree that repetition is not a good way to learn a raid encounter (unless you have no lives like some "Death and Taxes" or "Nihlium" members).  It loses it's fun and becomes "WORK" to the player that has crossed over the fine line of fun to work because he or she's depending on 39 other raiders to do their jobs right if he does his

 

@ other than that

Killing Anub'Rekhan in Naxx with 5k ping is no fun at all, thank god for server transfers, although i miss alliance actually being able to kill me, there's no challenge on some servers, horde outweighs alliance, or other way around, cookie cutters, most PVP servers don't orient around PVP, if it was actually feasibly possible and rewarding enuff to raid Ironforge or Orgrimmar, the game would be alot more fun and this is coming from a developer standpoint, but witht he modernized guards Post BC, that ain't happening,

Either way though blizzard earns massive props on their marketing techniques and their upkeep of the game, taking player suggestions in to account on each and every patch, good job blizzard i salute you

Tue Nov 27 2007 3:54PM Report
BadSpock writes:

The idea brutotal is that you play the character from level 1 to 70 and in the process, through questing, then doing 5 man instances, then 10 man raids, then 25 man raids.. that the "progression" teaches you the skills you need to succeed in the game. Not only the "when to hit the buttons" skills but "how to talk to people" skills. It's a process of socialization as much as it is a process of learning the game.

It's just after the first time through, you no longer get that advancement of knowledge from doing something "new" and different. It becomes a grind and total easy mode when you've done it already and already know what to do, know what to expect etc. The game is great, and fun, and challenging when you have no idea what to expect and what to do. It's just after you go through it all once, you become jaded.

This is true of ANY game, not just MMORPGs and not just WoW. Does this make the game "easy?" Yes and no.

Hexxeity - I also prefer a game where the challenge lies in the journey, and one where there is no end game. Unfortunately, these sandbox games tend to be devoid of "content" however they allow you the freedom to create you own. So they are win/lose just like more "linear" games with an end-game are win/lose.

It's all a matter of personal preference. And of course how difficult or easy something is is also a subjective measure, but all I'm trying to do is illuminate the fact that World of Warcraft is not as brainless and 'easy' as many MMORPG.com posters say it is, but instead there are aspects to the game that are very challenging.

Tue Nov 27 2007 4:16PM Report
Hexxeity writes:

I'm not a WoW hater by any means, and you make good points.

I have noticed that most of the time in these debates, when the opinions are very divided, it's a matter of one side (or both) having an incomplete or uninformed experience of the game in question.

Tue Nov 27 2007 4:20PM Report
DijonCyanide writes:

Thanks for the article heerobya.  I am going to return to WoW very soon & was thinking about attempting an axe dual wielding Troll warrior.  I wont do PvP again, for me the headache out-weighed the fun, but I like the WoW PvE environment ... at least as far as I remember.

Tue Nov 27 2007 4:42PM Report
Edinho writes:

Biggest problem is end game pve. There are a lot of idiots out there, mainly kids who go afk and dont pay attention. This leads to a 'everyone is a moron mentality' from the guild leaders. Got fed up of being treated like an idiot; i get that at work, but im not going to take it in a game. Yes endgame is hard, the hardest part is getting recognised and then keeping your place in raids by playing none-stop. If you arnt there ALL the time someone will take your place there goes your spot for the forseable future.

 

In the end the game isnt worth the effort or the pain.

Tue Nov 27 2007 5:20PM Report
vajuras writes:

I've hit the end game in WoW (pre-TBC), done the raids (onyxia and molten core, and wasted my life at many other instances). These encounters are scripted thus all you're doing is memorizing and perhaps learning what to do. I still contend uber gear makes up for a lot

What skill? You are not making dynamic decisions like I do when I come to work. You are simply going through a routine. Is it skill or memorization? Someone just said above they can tell the vets from noobs based on the gear they wear. Gimmie a break what if he purchased that toon and simply read a guide on what to do in the raid? Research or is it 'skill'?

Gear does not take skill to acquire it takes Time. You can buy that from a farmer, done. That is not skill.

Talent spec does not take skill. It takes RESEARCH. I can go to Blizzard forums right now and get a good Talent spec for a Shaman and will quickly discover what armor is best to use. Gimmie a break, just pick the highest numbers for gear. Why is that so hard? And if you can't figure it out ask a guildie

Tue Nov 27 2007 5:44PM Report
vajuras writes:

If it were, 90%+ of the players would be going through the high end raids like Naxxaramus (pre-BC) and Black Temple. This is simply not the case. Most Wow players have experienced the pre-BC 10 man raids, and Kharazan post-BC.

But I cant help but wonder if this is due to lack of good gear? Realize Gear is just another form of progression

You might be right, most likely you are right here in this blog. But I cant help but wonder what would happen if these remaining 90% have the best gear? But we will never know because I have no way to test it

 

Tue Nov 27 2007 6:33PM Report
Muroku writes:

"Say I want to do PvP as a Warrior. Ok, I'll probably put my talents into the Fury tree."

This quote makes me a sad panda. :(

 

Tue Nov 27 2007 10:01PM Report
NightCloak writes:

Unless you're part of the top 1% of raiders pushing new content, the only skill needed for end game is listening to directions.

Once a battle or raid has been completed, the info is then placed into a script and raiders follow the cues. Yes, some skill is involved. But not much. Its mostly just following directions unless your the RL. I played a tank and its just following a simple guide. Its disgustingly easier for DPS classes. Healers have the hardest job IMO

I agree PvP requires skill... But is far more affected by equipment than it should be. Skill still is greater than eq. But I wouldnt say skill has twice the effect that eq has. I also never count duels as any form of skill basis or balance concern.

Wed Nov 28 2007 6:24AM Report
t0nyd writes:

I disagree entirely. If you get into a nice sized guild most instances will be on farm. This means easy access to nice gear. As for PvP gear, it is easily obtainable if you have the time to spend. So in the end I think on the scale of things the game takes less skill and simply more time. Id say its something like this...

              Equipment > Class > Race > Skill

 

Equipment obviously matters the most. A warlock for example at lvl 70 could range from 5k hps to 10k hps depending on gear.

Class matters a lot. Some classes are built to win over other classes. Rogues for example, at lvl 70 rogues are built to beat a lot of class.

Race matters a lot. A undead warrior is practically immune to fear, this limits the advantages of a warlock and a priest.

Lastly I believe the game takes skill. There is a certain twitch factor to the game. Im not sure if you can correlate twitch factor and skill. Most people seem to think they are the same thing. Yes, PvP in WoW can be brutally fast. Is this skill or simply poor game design. If a warrior can charge, hamstring, and almost kill you in 3-4 swings, all the while your stunned due to charge and mace talents, well, thats not skill involved. Thats just smartly placed talents.

 

Wed Nov 28 2007 7:33AM Report
Spirer writes:

I used to play a Night Elf rogue, leveled as maces then changed to daggers when I got to 60. I was on the EU-Doomhammer server.

I completed all the raiding at 60, except Naxx, which the guild was halfway through when lag showed up before TBC and of course we got TBC shortly after. (Thadius with lag is not fun)

All my comments here will be solely for the PvE setting.

 

 

Talents are a clever idea, but for each weapon there is a top PvE build and 95% of raiders will have that spec.

Considering end game players, there is still an impressive number of "not so good" players, quite a few decent ones and a rare few really good ones.

A really good rogue player can't beat a half decent one, unless his gear is only slightly worse.

My take is that gear provides 75% of performance, with skill contributing 25%. I believe rogues are especially dependant on gear for dmg and survivability, the main hand weapon being a huge factor on performance.

Wed Nov 28 2007 7:52AM Report
BadSpock writes:

Maroku- OMG Sorry, mistype! I meant to say Arms tree! *editting*

Vajuras- You can just research the "best" gear and talent spec, but it is highly debatable. I knew a rogue who didn't have even close to the "best" gear, or what was considered the "best" spec, but he had the highest DPS of anyone in our guild because he chose to max out his +hit and +haste effects. It was a combination of his skill as a player, his intelligence as a researcher/experimentor, and I deep understand of how the game "works." I agree, it's not like your character dodges more or hits more because you are hitting the buttons in a different, more skillful way, I'm not trying to say that, I'm just saying that it takes more skill and intellect then "reading a forum" to be "good" at World of Warcraft.

t0nyd- I definetly see your point, and I agree with many of your points. Once again, I am simply trying to say that WoW takes a certain degree of skill and intellect to be one of the "good" players. Are the "majority" of players "good?" Probably not.

NightCloak - You'd be surprised at how many people have difficulty paying attention / following a script. In all my time raiding, never had a guild where everyone was 100% spot-on all the time. Guilds like Nihillum that push the content and write the strategy guides everyone else follows are indeed highly skilled, incredibly skilled even. Everyone else copies their gear selection and talent point specs for a reason, they aren't just "learning from others" but figured everything out and letting the rest of us know what's up.

Wed Nov 28 2007 8:38AM Report
BadSpock writes:

Oh and Vajuras...

It's all a progression. Pretty much, you need the gear from Tier 1 raid to even attempt the Tier 2 raid. The challenges are designed so that what you learn to do in Tier 1 raid, the script you follow as you say, will help prepare you for the script you follow in the Tier 2 raid.

That is why most player's don't progress through all of the content. Gear isn't just about time. At least, not raiding gear. To get the good raiding gear you have to be organized, learn the content, and rinse and repeat until you are decked out.

Then, once it's on "farm" you move on to the next Tier of raiding.

So it's not just "the more I play the better gear I get" you have to have the organization and skill/memorization abiliity to clear the pre-requisite content.

If you analyze the content, you see the pattern. 5-person dungeons teach you the basics, heroic 5-person dungeons teach you the coordination and tactics part, 10-person raids teach you organization and the social skills, 25 person raids bring it all together. The gear from 5-person dungeons prepares you for the heroics, the heroic gear prepares you for the 10-person raids..etc.

It's a system designed to keep you playing.

People/guilds only get "stuck" because individuals fail to progress, they don't learn the content, the get bored/annoyed with the content, or the social structure breaks down.

Wed Nov 28 2007 8:44AM Report
soulwynd writes:

I have only one comment about Wow and skills.

 

"Hawt nitelf gilr LFT, RNG 30 PST"

 

Fast leveling, easy gold, free items, pwns.

Wed Nov 28 2007 9:33AM Report
BadSpock writes:

WoW takes no more nor any less skill to play then any other MMO I have ever played.

EQ2, LOTRO, VG, TR, EVE, SWG, UO... and many more.

All have their challenges, all have their cake walks.

Wed Nov 28 2007 9:44AM Report
t0nyd writes:

It all depends on how you define skill. Most people seem to define skill based on twitch play. I look at gaming like this...

Intelligence/Knowledge:   Knowing which ability to use when and what equipment to wear when fighting different opponents. Tactics.

Skill: Hand eye coordination. The ability to react fast and control your character precisely.

 If I had to compare WoW and Guild Wars. I would say Guild Wars takes more knowledge and skill where as WoW simply takes more time. In GW, fights are faster and every skill press can be the deciding factor. Where as in WoW the fights are more tailored by the limits of your gear, class, and race. In all honest, in WoW at 70 with nice gear an undead rogue should be able to beat every class except warrior and maybe paladin. Of course in this situation the undead rogue should lose either, he should simply flee. You cant kill what you cant find. In guild wars, class isnt so defining.

 

 

 

 

Wed Nov 28 2007 10:20AM Report
BadSpock writes:

There are very few classes in WoW that can just stand and press buttons in combat, especially PvP combat.

And in PvP, those few classes have to keep moving to try and catch up to the rest of the bunch who are running around like crazy..

I think this is why many consider WoW to have "semi-twitch" PvP combat. Yes, you don't have to aim or manually dodge, but movement and positioning is very important, and in PvP timing and situational awareness make or break a fight.

Again, WoW takes no more nor any less skill then any other MMO. True, Guild Wars is a little faster, but is still "semi-twitch" PvP.

Wed Nov 28 2007 10:32AM Report
t0nyd writes:

They are both twitch based, yet in Guild Wars by moving erratically you can actually dodge projectiles and certain spells. This is a skill based tactic.

Your right about WoW tho, there are a few classes that have to keep moving and avoid melee at all costs, but the classes that have to be in melee usually have all the advantages they need to stay there. Examples.

Rogue

  • Stealth: allows them to initiate melee
  • Sprint  : speed boost/snare removal
  • Crippling poison: snare
  • Deadly throw: ranged snare
  • CloS: magical snare removal and near immunity
  • Vanish: re-stealth to either flee or initiate melee
  • various stuns and incapacitates

Warriors

  • Charge: initiate melee from range + stun
  • Intercept: initiate melee from range + stun
  • Hamstring: long duration snare

A hunter vs a rogue as an example, Lets say the hunter even knows the rogue is near and flares and drops a trap.

Rogue clicks CloS. Rogue runs and will resist the trap and begin the beat down. The only chance the hunter has is if he is Beast spec and wraths or he will be stunned down with no real way to counter. For some reason shots are magical so dont count on them to hit due to CloS. Rogue clicks evasion your pet isnt going to hit so do not count on intimidate landing nor your own hamstring, which he will simply remove with sprint and you will be snared anyway with no real method of leaving melee its game over.

 

 

 

WoW is made to minimize the effects of skill in a PvP based enironment. Each class is tailored to defeat other classes regardless of skill. If you throw in a gear difference the fight becomes extremely one sided.

                                                                         

 

 

 

Wed Nov 28 2007 10:55AM Report
BadSpock writes:

You realize that entire paragraph you just typed up about the Rogue vs. Hunter battle is where the "skill" in WoW comes from?

It takes time, practice, and skill to be able to pull off that kind of stuff.

 

Wed Nov 28 2007 12:07PM Report
vajuras writes:

first off I want to thank the author for not flaming us dissendients (aka jaded WoW endgame players). There is only really one major qualm I have here:

"That is why most player's don't progress through all of the content. Gear isn't just about time. At least, not raiding gear. To get the good raiding gear you have to be organized, learn the content, and rinse and repeat until you are decked out."

I think what we need to arrive at here in regards to Raiding is that "skill" per se of one man is a factor yes. Someone that does not have skill will use their skills improperly (for instance a Shaman newbie might not even drop a totem).

But what is more important is the Coordination more then anything. What is more important then the player skill is the overall "experience" of the players in the Guild. The Elite Raiding Guilds will have most any instance on "farm status". I know I would show up to join an Elite raiding guild as a 'partner' of sorts and I had no idea what to do. I just followed instructions on Ventrillo and came out fine.

I contend Tradional dice roll type RPGs like WoW are not meant really to challenge your "player skill" but rather- challenge you in other areas (coordination, memory, knowledge of your Class, knoweldge of game mechanics, etc).

I can only speak really on pre-TBC raids (Tier 2 at that time? 40 man raids).

There is some skill but of course we cannot qualify how much was contributed

Maybe its 50% personal skill or maybe its 75% skill but how do we arrive at these numbers? Also, how much do we factor in memorization (veterancy), Gear (which makes a HUGE difference), Potions, etc.

Also, I still contend you are still only getting rewarded for your Time investment. These raids are not setup for perma-fail (only one shot) so you can bounce back and retry as long as you have the time and zeal to do it. Next, joining an Elite Raiding Guild helps a whole lot. Even newbies get to walk away with great gear. So Coordination is probably the biggest factor of all. That is okay- PVP is the same way. Experienced PVP Guilds slaughter PUGs

Wed Nov 28 2007 12:53PM Report
BadSpock writes:

Ah Vajuras, once again you dazzle me.

"I contend Traditional dice roll type PRGs like WoW are not meant really to challenge your "player skill" but rather- challenge you in other areas (coordination, memory, knowledge of your Class, knowledge of game mechanics, etc)."

That statement, I think, is the best sumerization of what I'm trying to get across.

To me, this is what I love about MMORPGs. It's the dice roll type RPG mechanics coupled with the social experience. It allows me to create an alternative identity to be proud of, but unlike a single player RPG, I get to show it off and enjoy the experience with others. I'm a hardcore multiplayer gamer (whatever the genre) at heart, hence I love MMOs.

I do play FPS games online and also really enjoy it, but THAT is where I show off my "player skill."

Maybe, throughout this whole thing, I'm making the assumption that MMOs should be about these dice roll type systems, where as people like you Vajuras and others want more "player skill" oriented systems, but in a MMO environment.

I mean, I get that, but I think that's the fundamental difference that is causing all this debate.

Wed Nov 28 2007 1:02PM Report
vajuras writes:

Bah sorry I will correct myself on my last paragraph I am willing to concede Raiding takes a lot more skill then I give it credit for. Yes, they are learning a Dance routine but that in itself does demand a lot of "overall skill" for the entire Guild. If we look at this from the BIG picture (Guild) then I agree 100% the Guild requires "skill".

See what I am saying? A skilled Guild can makeup for individual defencies.

I will try to research the other post-TBC guilds thanks excellent blogs

Wed Nov 28 2007 1:04PM Report
BadSpock writes:

I think this one has the most comments of any of my blog posts!

Thanks to YOU guys for joining me in friendly debate.

Wed Nov 28 2007 1:43PM Report
BadSpock writes:

post-TBC.

TBC was the great "raid guild killer."

You no longer needed 40+ people of exceptional skill to progress, you needed about half that. The first raid, Kharazan, required only 10 people, and unlike the 10 person raid from pre-TBC, Upper Blackrock Spire, the gear in this 10  man was really good!

So the really big and powerful raiding guilds made A and B raid groups, of course, the B people didn't like being in the #2 team, so many of them left and created their own guilds.

While people were getting to Kharazan, many guilds broke up. It's just so hard to coordinate and run 4 seperate 10-person raid groups. People complain and whine etc. about not being in the "A" group, so even more guilds split up and new guilds formed.

Any hodge-podge of 10 fairly skilled players could tackle Kharazan, and when they proved success, they'd recruit more people and start the 25 person stuff, picking up people from the old 40-person raid Guilds...

It was kind of funny, but a HUGE relief.

I spent time managing/leading raids for a 40 person raiding guild.... ouch.

10-25 was a LOT more managable. And also, it spread the talent around so more people could get to experience raid content.

It was one of the smartest moves Blizzard ever made.

Wed Nov 28 2007 3:37PM Report
vajuras writes:

hey we posted at the sametime. I think you did a brilliant job bringing your point of view across. That was a really excellent point using the post-TBC raids that argument sort of neuters any argument I could bring up due to ignorance of that content + stats that most Guilds are not doing these raids yet. Very interesting. One of best blogs written on WoW that I've read seriously

Wed Nov 28 2007 3:38PM Report
BadSpock writes:

Well, you (Vajuras) and JB always do such a great job bringing your point of view across, I just had to stand up and match your wit for once :) thanks though

I look forward to your next blog too

Wed Nov 28 2007 4:52PM Report

MMORPG.com writes:
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