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BadSpock's Logical Conclusions.

My random thoughts about MMORPGs. A bit of critique, suggestion, debate, and insanity. Enjoy.

Author: BadSpock

MMOs have strayed too far

Posted by BadSpock Thursday June 18 2009 at 1:12PM
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If anything MMOs have become too complex and too dependant on technology.

They need to go back to the basics, not try and make things more complex.

Leave FPS combat to FPS games.

Leave tedius and boring crafting with dozens of steps to real life and management games like the Sims.

Leave the min/maxing of stats and finding the most "efficient" ways to get to the end.

These are MMORPGs. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games.

The more technological and "complex" and "action oriented" these games become, the more they have to use instancing and zoning and other systems that take away from the Massively part.

The more "complex" and "action oriented" these games become, the more they become "niche" titles for the elitist MMO "hardcore" which takes away thousands, if not millions from the Multiplayer part.

The more I have to worry about managing resources and min/maxing my stats and the more I have to focus on number and mathematical efficiency, the less I am able to feel like I am Role Playing and the more I feel like I'm working or doing homework.

Just give me games that are fun to play, easy to get into, yet take skill and are challenging to master. Give me games that focus on the massively multiplayer part, the community and the vast openness of the world rather then spending all my time worrying about stats and managing this and that and doing homework.

Too many games and too many gamers don't realize that the thing their MMOs are missing isn't complexity, there is plenty of that in modern MMOs...

What they are missing is the fun. The adventure. The sense of discovery and wonder and camradiere and competition that comes from playing with and against other people in a massive online world.

No they are more focused on min/maxing their stats and finding the most efficient route to get the best loot and it's really quite sad what this genre has become.

It's incredibly sad that if you suggest things like taking away the loot and removing levels that people outcry "well what would we do then?"

sanders01 writes:

 You seem to think your view on games is the only good one, that all  modern MMOs are wrong in the way they are deveoloped, and that the gamers that play these MMOs are somehow below you. Reading this I get this impression and it' really annoys me. As for no levels and no loot, that wouldn't be my kind of 'fun'. It would be a simulation, not an RPG. Like it or not, most MMOs are built on levels, somehow or another. I do agree that FPS combat should stick to FPS, and that twitch combat doesn't equate to having a more 'skilled' game. I think of a skilled game as in making you think, not seeing hows the best with their mouse and keyboard. It does seem MMOs are heading in that direction though, and yet they still want to label themselves RPGs when in fact, their just multiplayer FPS. Massive worlds are what what the 'Massive' in MMO stands for.

Thu Jun 18 2009 3:28PM Report
Zyllos writes:

I think this is because of the popularization of MMOs. The general MMO gamer has changed focus from just playing a game to reward driven casual gamers.

Thu Jun 18 2009 6:49PM Report
comerb writes:

 We don't need to dumb down the genre more than it already is.  What you fail to realize is that the min/max part of gameplay is what draws a significant number of the subscribers.  Those "thousand or millions" of elitest hard-cores that like playing "niche" games play those games because thats what they enjoy.  

You're basically saying "lets make all games shallow and unchallenging so everyone has to play a game that I like."  


Thu Jun 18 2009 8:05PM Report
Arulin writes:

Whine much heerobya? I'm so jaded that I'm right of Morgan aso allow me to rain on your pitty parade.

First of all, I find you are so one sided in this subject that you sound like George W Bush on the Iraq war. To take a quote from Comerb, it sounds like you want all mmos to be shallow , rice paper.... That  would drive me back to "Pen & Paper" RPGs. The truth of it is that these MMOs today are not pushing the limits enough, are not taking it to the limits(crafting, interaction, etc) that are being brushed against. EvE and WoW seem to be the limit of potential in mmo? Frankly I would kill to see a game as complex as Fable 2 or Mass Effect in an MMO. Dear God I hope the Natal Project gives MMOs on concole a chance to pull that off that to a point that one can acturally craft there own sword and have it be as unique as they are, or bring a Mech Warrior style combat system that allows for huge mass campigns with not NPCs but real poeple (RF Online coming close to it).


Who wants this you say?


We are the people who use to clan up in, Mplayer, and Gamespy...Who most likely kicked you around like a soccer ball (The Terminal Clan was my mates and we slughtered many back in the day ). Those of us who want to not just drop into a short match but want a game that we can have an entire cyber realm to explore and with others. Sorry if the days of stand alone 8 bit gaming went the way of the VHS and analog converter boxes. Maybe MMOs are not for you, but certainly are for those who posted before me and myself.



Thu Jun 18 2009 11:06PM Report
carhothion writes:

If I wanted to spend my time playing a game that all I had to do was press a button, I would go back to the NES and Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. I don't know about you, but I personally have a hard time feeling like I'm role playing when all I have to do is click on the enemy and watch my character swing. I need something that requires me to think.

I come from the days when role playing was more than simply saying that my character did something, and it was more than simply clicking a button and watching my toon dance. I come from the days that if you wanted to play an RPG, you became your character, and nothing was said or done during your session that wasn't in game and in character.

Why do I play an MMO, I play an MMO because I want to become a character in a fantasy realm, someone who is in some way heroic and extraordinary. I want to know what it's like to feel like that character, to weigh my options when I have to choose between the new, shiny greatsword and the trusted bastard sword / shield combination I'd been using. I want to have to take the time to figure out what I can make if I combine to items into one. If you ask me, we don't have games that are complex enough yet.

Is there a place for the simplified games? Certainly, but they aren't on my computer screen.

Thu Jun 18 2009 11:34PM Report
Arulin writes:

Bravo Carhothion.

Fri Jun 19 2009 6:30AM Report
BadSpock writes:

Wow you guys really misread everything I was saying.

Such ignorance and a complete lack of understanding.

I speak in generalities, yet you assume too much. You are the ones reading into what I've said with your own bias and misunderstanding.

I suppose it's impossible to reason with people on forums.. so I'll just agree with you so your heads don't hurt trying to rationalize and interpret "higher level" thinking...

Yes, I want MMOs to involve only pushing one button over and over so I can sit there, drooling all over myself, picking my nose while I accumulate the phat epic loots.

Fri Jun 19 2009 10:22AM Report
Arulin writes:

Are you a repubican? You back peddle like one. Flame like one.  You also call folks stupid like one when we use our minds to undo you....You related to Bush? I think you are.

Fri Jun 19 2009 5:07PM Report
sanders01 writes:

So your argument gets stomped, so you throw a hissy fit saying we just didn't 'understand your higher thinking'. Nice work. You must be really smart to write a blog only you can understand.

Fri Jun 19 2009 10:48PM Report
BadSpock writes:

Wow you guys take this stuff way too seriously.

Lighten up.

Apparently you are allowed to disagree and flame my opinion and I am not allowed to disagree with yours. I see. From now on I will just listen to whatever you guys say my masters.

Mon Jun 22 2009 9:53AM Report
sanders01 writes:

You weren't disagreeing, you were calling us 'idiots'. Yes, I'm smart enough to read into your words. Since we didn't agree with you, you try to make it sound like you're higher than us, when you are not. You go up on your hill to hide from the volleys of the things you don't want to hear. You can stay up there as long as you like ;)

Mon Jun 22 2009 10:38AM Report
BadSpock writes:

You are the one that thinks that I think I'm better then you.

I just give my opinion.

And frankly, I don understand this genre very well and I do try and provoke thoughts that are "outside the box" yet all I get in return is the same mindless banter.

I really don't know why I even try.

What annoys me is people who use buzz words and popular forum flaming words like "dumbed down" and "casuals" and use the same over done analogies time and time again to describe something that they really have no understanding of.

Maybe I really am above you. See that's the problem is that people are so used to this "gold star" "everyone is special and a winner" crap that they can't grasp the idea that people are different and some people are simply a lot smarter and more capable then others.

This is ridiculous. I'm a MMO power-gamer, quite 'hardcore" to you buzz word kids, and I've been around this genre long enough to see what it has become and know what it once was. This has given me a lot of perspective.

The real funny thing is I understand and accept both sides of all of these arguments that pop up time and time again on MMO sites and I really do respect that other people may think differently and enjoy different things.

But I also know for a fact that most forum posters are morons who have no idea what they are talking about and can't see but an inch in front of their own noses.

So yes, I am better then you. Have a nice day.

Mon Jun 22 2009 12:16PM Report
sanders01 writes:

Apparently you're blind to your above comment. If it was sarcasim, it was very poor sarcasim lol. But thanks for affirming you're know-it-all-my-opinon-is-the-only-one-that-matters attitude of yours.

Mon Jun 22 2009 12:44PM Report
BadSpock writes:


Once again you miss the point.

All joking and sarcasm and narcissism aside (and bad spelling)

It's not that my opinion or yours or anyone else's is neccessarily "more right" or "more wrong" because of who gave said opinion, it's a matter of how informed that opinion is.

If you were to ask a high schooler in an Economics class what their opinion of a particular economic measure was, say something like a new stimulus package proposal, and you asked for the opinion of an economics advisor and professor who has published many works on the economy...

Would either opinion be "more right" or "more wrong?" They are both just opinions correct? 

Wrong. The economists opinion is likely "more right" because is it is a much more informed opinion.

It's all just alot of politcing and posturing in the end, as if you asked two economists of similar degree they would both assume their opinion was the "most right" of course.

So in the end it's a matter of choice and a matter of presentation, who you think is "more right" is based almost exclussively on your preconceived notions with the only really altering variable being the presentation and believability of whoever is giving it.

In this situation, I present myself as someone who is knowledgable of all the different aspects of the MMO genre due to my experience.

If you don't agree or value my opinion either your preconceived notions are radically different or the believability of my presentation is severly lacking, which I would admit that it most likely is.

I don't spend hours revising and updating a blog post on a MMO site to make sure I don't come off as an asshole.

Mon Jun 22 2009 1:03PM Report
BadSpock writes:

So to go back to your original comment,

Do I think my view on games is the only good one? 


But I would value my opinion much more so then the 99% of vomit postings that are on this site.  

Mon Jun 22 2009 1:07PM Report
sanders01 writes:

Its one thing to have an opinion, but to not argue it and just 'dismiss' oposition is differnt. Clearly you don't know how to debate.

Mon Jun 22 2009 3:34PM Report
BadSpock writes:

When I hear an intelligent argument from the opposition I'll gladly debate it.

When all I hear is "dumbed down" and "casuals" and "monkey could do it" "brittney spears" "mcdonalds" "shallow" or any of the 9,000 other so called "arguments" forum posters give...

Hard to call that a debate sir.

So yes I will gladly dismiss stupidity.

Your first post sanders01 was quite good, the 2nd half anyway.

"As for no levels and no loot, that wouldn't be my kind of 'fun'. It would be a simulation, not an RPG. Like it or not, most MMOs are built on levels, somehow or another. I do agree that FPS combat should stick to FPS, and that twitch combat doesn't equate to having a more 'skilled' game. I think of a skilled game as in making you think, not seeing hows the best with their mouse and keyboard. It does seem MMOs are heading in that direction though, and yet they still want to label themselves RPGs when in fact, their just multiplayer FPS. Massive worlds are what what the 'Massive' in MMO stands for."

Your points are made well but I think it's an issue with not really knowing anything different besides levels in RPGs and not having experience with them?

Mon Jun 22 2009 3:43PM Report writes:
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